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Lots of speculation and innuendo in that article. - Officer Tipping wasn’t investigating rape, but simply took the victim statement. - The officer in the trai

Lots of speculation and innuendo in that article. - Officer Tipping wasn’t investigating rape, but simply took the victim statement. - The officer in the training exercise that killed Officer Tipping has the same name as the officer in Tipping’s report, but they are not sure if it is the same person. - The medical examiner ruled the killing an accident. The article then quotes a tweet that says medical examiners undercount murders by police, implying collusion or coverup. - There is no recording of the training. The article states that often video recordings are made, implying a cover up. Abuse of power by the police is heinous. They are supposed to be our protectors, so I hate it as much as the next person. But we must be led by fact not belief or we are no better than those who believe the Big Lie.

ethanbond 4y ago
I wonder how a medical examiner could possibly distinguish between bludgeoning injuries sustained as part of a simulated mob attack (accidental) and bludgeoning injuries sustained as part of a murder that took place during a simulated mob attack (not accidental).
- jaywalk 4y ago
  I believe medical examiners make that determination based off the police report in cases like this. So if the cops said it was an accident, and the ME finds that the accidental injury was the cause of death, then it's an accidental death.
mpalczewski 4y ago
What's the "Big Lie"?
- sjsdaiuasgdia 4y ago
  Generally speaking, "the Big Lie" refers to the idea that the 2020 US presidential election's result was fraudulent and Donald Trump was the true winner.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    That's the most recent application; it comes more originally from one of the primary scapegoats used by the Nazis against the European Jews[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie
    - Hnrobert42 4y ago
      True. I meant it in both senses. That is, if we don’t actively examine our biases, we are susceptible to whatever big lie is the Big Lie of the time.
    - danans 4y ago
      The concept of a great lie or deception is really far older, present even in the biblical descriptions of Satan as the "Great Deceiver".
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        It's a term of art, referring to a specific kind of propaganda. I don't think it was inspired by that particular euphemism for Satan.
        danans 4y ago
        > I don't think it was inspired by that particular euphemism for Satan. Agreed, just as the usage referring to denial of the 2020 US presidential election was not inspired by its usage by the Nazis. My point is only that "Big Lie/Liar" or some variant thereof has been a phrase used rhetorically for millennia.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        I think the connection between the Big Lie of Nazism and the Big Lie of our former president is pretty clear: it’s a well-understood historical term, with relevant parallels. I find it difficult to believe that American journalists, an otherwise well-read and historically informed community of people, would conjure the concept without intending it as a reference. And certainly in that fashion more than as a prosaic form of “this lie was extra big.” Edit: For example, here is an NPR article that explicitly makes the connection between the two Big Lies[1]. [1]: https://www.npr.org/2021/12/23/1065277246/trump-big-lie-jan-6-election https://www.npr.org/2021/12/23/1065277246/trump-big-lie-jan-...
- reb 4y ago
  Donald Trump's claim that he won the 2020 election.
wpietri 4y ago
> The article then quotes a tweet that says medical examiners undercount murders by police, implying collusion or coverup. Why do you believe this implies a cover-up? Could just be systemic bias, a big problem in the justice system.
- fundad 4y ago
  systemic bias results in cover-up
d23 4y ago
I appreciate the nuance. These two comments summarize it for me: > "Officer Tipping did not sustain any laceration to the head" and "was also not struck or beaten during this training session," Police Chief Michel Moore told the LAPD Board of Police Commissioners in June. "He did grapple with another officer, and both fell to the ground, resulting in a catastrophic injury to his spinal cord." > Gage claims that Tipping wound up with three broken ribs, a lacerated liver, head injuries, and a broken neck. "His heart eventually stopped working because of his injuries" and "he was paralyzed….He had subdural hematomas at three places on the left side and three places on the right side. There is no way that grappling would have caused those injuries the way the LAPD portrayed it." Which is to say: I don't know. A thorough investigation by a competent expert with no conflicts of interest seems necessary.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- OrvalWintermute 4y ago
  > Gage claims that Tipping wound up with three broken ribs, a lacerated liver This is missing something. CPR often results in broken/cracked ribs and abdominal injuries. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266652042200042X?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266652042...
  - samatman 4y ago
    Giving someone with a neck injury CPR is a good way to make sure they stay dead, sure. Was that your point?
tyingq 4y ago
I agree that there's lots of unhelpful innuendo there. Though suffering "three broken ribs, a lacerated liver, head injuries, and a broken neck...subdural hematomas at three places on the left side and three places on the right side" accidentally, during a "grappling exercise", raises some eyebrows.
- germinalphrase 4y ago
  As an amateur grappler, I don’t find it plausible those injuries would be suffered accidentally.
  - OrvalWintermute 4y ago
    CPR causes injuries. Half of the injuries are likely tied to the CPR. The other half may or may not be related to the training event fall, or intentional violence.
    - germinalphrase 4y ago
      Sure. There could be entirely ‘reasonable’ reasons for these injuries, but my smell test indicates that more questions are in order.
    - FireBeyond 4y ago
      > Half of the injuries are likely tied to the CPR. That's going to need some more review. As a paramedic, I've performed CPR more than 400+ times. In less than 5 of them were any ribs broken. Usually on frail elderly people. Separation from the sternum is far more common, but will (apropos of other issues) cause bruising and a painful cough for a couple of weeks. Laceration of the liver? Only once. Also on someone more elderly. Certainly not impossible. But even with five or more firefighters pounding on someone's chest for 10-20 minutes or more, these injuries are rare - let alone all of them in one patient. These cops must have been trying to drive his ribs through the floor with their compressions.
      - OrvalWintermute 4y ago
woodruffw 4y ago
Far be it from me to defend Reason, but I think you're overstating the degree of innuendo: the victim's statement directly accused 4 LAPD officers of rape, meaning that Tipping's conscience was the only thing between four men with guns and four potential, very long prison stays. Combine that with the attorney's claim that one of the accused officers was at the training, and you have ample motive, cause, and setting. A court case would reveal more details, and that's precisely what the Tipping's family appears to be seeking.
teachrdan 4y ago
> - The officer in the training exercise that killed Officer Tipping has the same name as the officer in Tipping’s report, but they are not sure if it is the same person. It appears you did not finish reading TFA. There was an investigation that confirmed the same officer was at the training: "Gage could not confirm that the officer accused of rape was the officer directly engaged in the training exercise with Tipping. But he said 'our investigation indicates that yes, it was.' " And frankly, if you don't think it's suspicious that an officer who investigated four LAPD officers raping a woman later getting killed in a freak bicycle training accident isn't suspicious, you may need to reset your baseline for what is "speculation and innuendo." What happened here was extremely suspicious. Even before considering that one of those officers charged was at the training. (One may even wonder why a police officer accused of rape was not only still on duty, but even training other officers.)
- tomcam 4y ago
  > And frankly, if you don't think it's suspicious What? Mind reading. GP was mostly stating facts, not commenting about their own state of mind My personal thoughts are very closely aligned with yours, btw
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    "If" is a conditional. When I say "If you are happy about that..." I'm not reading your mind.
- jstarfish 4y ago
  > One may even wonder why a police officer accused of rape was not only still on duty, but even training other officers. Because accusations are cheap enough to be weaponizable as a denial-of-service attack. The penalty for false accusations is something pathetic, like 1 year.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ipaddr 4y ago
renewiltord 4y ago
Personally, unless I see something with my own eyes, it is the same as Time Cube.
- uoaei 4y ago
  Then it makes just as little sense to speculate on innocence as it does to speculate on guilt.
  - renewiltord 4y ago
    Haha, yes, of course. In fact, come to think of it, is object permanence a reasonable concept? Once I am no longer perceiving an object aren't I just relying on a fallible memory of it?
jwilber 4y ago
Hard to take your views earnestly when you write: “The officer in the training exercise that killed Officer Tipping has the same name as the officer in Tipping’s report, but they are not sure if it is the same person.” Talk about grasping for incongruities… The article even mentioned it was, so why the misrepresentation from your end? Why present a view of moral skepticism for the accused on the one hand, while falsifying evidence for the accusers on the other?
- Hnrobert42 4y ago
  “The name of one of the officers accused of rape ‘seems to correlate with one of the officers that was at the bicycle training,’ said Gage.” “Gage could not confirm that the officer accused of rape was the officer directly engaged in the training exercise with Tipping. But he said 'our investigation indicates that yes, it was.' " “Seems to correlate” “Could not confirm” “Indicates” The two may indeed be the same person, but a fair reading is that they are presently unsure.
ALittleLight 4y ago
I agree that we shouldn't take this report to be dispositive. That is, we shouldn't just fling the cops at the training into prison. The issues raised in the article certainly seem suspicious and the thing to do with meaningful suspicions is investigate.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
stefan_ 4y ago
I don't get it. No side denies that there was some sort of struggle which resulted in his death - how can that be accidental? Why would a "medical examiner" make that judgement?

ethanbond 4y ago

I wonder how a medical examiner could possibly distinguish between bludgeoning injuries sustained as part of a simulated mob attack (accidental) and bludgeoning injuries sustained as part of a murder that took place during a simulated mob attack (not accidental).

jaywalk 4y ago
I believe medical examiners make that determination based off the police report in cases like this. So if the cops said it was an accident, and the ME finds that the accidental injury was the cause of death, then it's an accidental death.

mpalczewski 4y ago

What's the "Big Lie"?

sjsdaiuasgdia 4y ago
Generally speaking, "the Big Lie" refers to the idea that the 2020 US presidential election's result was fraudulent and Donald Trump was the true winner.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  That's the most recent application; it comes more originally from one of the primary scapegoats used by the Nazis against the European Jews[1]. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie
  - Hnrobert42 4y ago
    True. I meant it in both senses. That is, if we don’t actively examine our biases, we are susceptible to whatever big lie is the Big Lie of the time.
  - danans 4y ago
    The concept of a great lie or deception is really far older, present even in the biblical descriptions of Satan as the "Great Deceiver".
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      It's a term of art, referring to a specific kind of propaganda. I don't think it was inspired by that particular euphemism for Satan.
      - danans 4y ago
        > I don't think it was inspired by that particular euphemism for Satan. Agreed, just as the usage referring to denial of the 2020 US presidential election was not inspired by its usage by the Nazis. My point is only that "Big Lie/Liar" or some variant thereof has been a phrase used rhetorically for millennia.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        I think the connection between the Big Lie of Nazism and the Big Lie of our former president is pretty clear: it’s a well-understood historical term, with relevant parallels. I find it difficult to believe that American journalists, an otherwise well-read and historically informed community of people, would conjure the concept without intending it as a reference. And certainly in that fashion more than as a prosaic form of “this lie was extra big.” Edit: For example, here is an NPR article that explicitly makes the connection between the two Big Lies[1]. [1]: https://www.npr.org/2021/12/23/1065277246/trump-big-lie-jan-6-election https://www.npr.org/2021/12/23/1065277246/trump-big-lie-jan-...
reb 4y ago
Donald Trump's claim that he won the 2020 election.

wpietri 4y ago

> The article then quotes a tweet that says medical examiners undercount murders by police, implying collusion or coverup. Why do you believe this implies a cover-up? Could just be systemic bias, a big problem in the justice system.

fundad 4y ago
systemic bias results in cover-up

d23 4y ago

I appreciate the nuance. These two comments summarize it for me: > "Officer Tipping did not sustain any laceration to the head" and "was also not struck or beaten during this training session," Police Chief Michel Moore told the LAPD Board of Police Commissioners in June. "He did grapple with another officer, and both fell to the ground, resulting in a catastrophic injury to his spinal cord." > Gage claims that Tipping wound up with three broken ribs, a lacerated liver, head injuries, and a broken neck. "His heart eventually stopped working because of his injuries" and "he was paralyzed….He had subdural hematomas at three places on the left side and three places on the right side. There is no way that grappling would have caused those injuries the way the LAPD portrayed it." Which is to say: I don't know. A thorough investigation by a competent expert with no conflicts of interest seems necessary.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
OrvalWintermute 4y ago
> Gage claims that Tipping wound up with three broken ribs, a lacerated liver This is missing something. CPR often results in broken/cracked ribs and abdominal injuries. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266652042200042X?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266652042...
- samatman 4y ago
  Giving someone with a neck injury CPR is a good way to make sure they stay dead, sure. Was that your point?

tyingq 4y ago

I agree that there's lots of unhelpful innuendo there. Though suffering "three broken ribs, a lacerated liver, head injuries, and a broken neck...subdural hematomas at three places on the left side and three places on the right side" accidentally, during a "grappling exercise", raises some eyebrows.

germinalphrase 4y ago
As an amateur grappler, I don’t find it plausible those injuries would be suffered accidentally.
- OrvalWintermute 4y ago
  CPR causes injuries. Half of the injuries are likely tied to the CPR. The other half may or may not be related to the training event fall, or intentional violence.
  - germinalphrase 4y ago
    Sure. There could be entirely ‘reasonable’ reasons for these injuries, but my smell test indicates that more questions are in order.
  - FireBeyond 4y ago
    > Half of the injuries are likely tied to the CPR. That's going to need some more review. As a paramedic, I've performed CPR more than 400+ times. In less than 5 of them were any ribs broken. Usually on frail elderly people. Separation from the sternum is far more common, but will (apropos of other issues) cause bruising and a painful cough for a couple of weeks. Laceration of the liver? Only once. Also on someone more elderly. Certainly not impossible. But even with five or more firefighters pounding on someone's chest for 10-20 minutes or more, these injuries are rare - let alone all of them in one patient. These cops must have been trying to drive his ribs through the floor with their compressions.
    - OrvalWintermute 4y ago

woodruffw 4y ago

Far be it from me to defend Reason, but I think you're overstating the degree of innuendo: the victim's statement directly accused 4 LAPD officers of rape, meaning that Tipping's conscience was the only thing between four men with guns and four potential, very long prison stays. Combine that with the attorney's claim that one of the accused officers was at the training, and you have ample motive, cause, and setting. A court case would reveal more details, and that's precisely what the Tipping's family appears to be seeking.

teachrdan 4y ago

> - The officer in the training exercise that killed Officer Tipping has the same name as the officer in Tipping’s report, but they are not sure if it is the same person. It appears you did not finish reading TFA. There was an investigation that confirmed the same officer was at the training: "Gage could not confirm that the officer accused of rape was the officer directly engaged in the training exercise with Tipping. But he said 'our investigation indicates that yes, it was.' " And frankly, if you don't think it's suspicious that an officer who investigated four LAPD officers raping a woman later getting killed in a freak bicycle training accident isn't suspicious, you may need to reset your baseline for what is "speculation and innuendo." What happened here was extremely suspicious. Even before considering that one of those officers charged was at the training. (One may even wonder why a police officer accused of rape was not only still on duty, but even training other officers.)

tomcam 4y ago
> And frankly, if you don't think it's suspicious What? Mind reading. GP was mostly stating facts, not commenting about their own state of mind My personal thoughts are very closely aligned with yours, btw
- pessimizer 4y ago
  "If" is a conditional. When I say "If you are happy about that..." I'm not reading your mind.
jstarfish 4y ago
> One may even wonder why a police officer accused of rape was not only still on duty, but even training other officers. Because accusations are cheap enough to be weaponizable as a denial-of-service attack. The penalty for false accusations is something pathetic, like 1 year.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ipaddr 4y ago

renewiltord 4y ago

Personally, unless I see something with my own eyes, it is the same as Time Cube.

uoaei 4y ago
Then it makes just as little sense to speculate on innocence as it does to speculate on guilt.
- renewiltord 4y ago
  Haha, yes, of course. In fact, come to think of it, is object permanence a reasonable concept? Once I am no longer perceiving an object aren't I just relying on a fallible memory of it?

jwilber 4y ago

Hard to take your views earnestly when you write: “The officer in the training exercise that killed Officer Tipping has the same name as the officer in Tipping’s report, but they are not sure if it is the same person.” Talk about grasping for incongruities… The article even mentioned it was, so why the misrepresentation from your end? Why present a view of moral skepticism for the accused on the one hand, while falsifying evidence for the accusers on the other?

Hnrobert42 4y ago
“The name of one of the officers accused of rape ‘seems to correlate with one of the officers that was at the bicycle training,’ said Gage.” “Gage could not confirm that the officer accused of rape was the officer directly engaged in the training exercise with Tipping. But he said 'our investigation indicates that yes, it was.' " “Seems to correlate” “Could not confirm” “Indicates” The two may indeed be the same person, but a fair reading is that they are presently unsure.

ALittleLight 4y ago

I agree that we shouldn't take this report to be dispositive. That is, we shouldn't just fling the cops at the training into prison. The issues raised in the article certainly seem suspicious and the thing to do with meaningful suspicions is investigate.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

stefan_ 4y ago

I don't get it. No side denies that there was some sort of struggle which resulted in his death - how can that be accidental? Why would a "medical examiner" make that judgement?