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Arguing that reading anything, even small amounts of information located directly on the ticket or receipt, is "legalese" is very reductive and seems to be comi

Arguing that reading anything, even small amounts of information located directly on the ticket or receipt, is "legalese" is very reductive and seems to be coming from an emotional rather than logical argument. Event tickets are an established practice that is very familiar and straightforward to consumers and as another commenter mentioned is a false equivalence for several reasons. There is an actual legal concept of an undue burden and that is exactly what having to read through many pages of fine print is. If you don't actually own digital content it should be highlighted very clearly, while placing a minimal undue burden on the consumer. Otherwise, it's deceptive.

vel0city 4y ago
I want to watch Top Gun: Maverick. I go to the Amazon Store page. https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0B213HG4N/ref=atv_hm_hom_4_c_dR69uw_brws_2_2 https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0B213HG4N/ref=atv_hm... I see "By ordering or viewing, you agree to our Terms[link to terms]" Huh maybe I should look at what I'm buying before I click checkout. https://www.primevideo.com/help?nodeId=202095490&view-type=content-only https://www.primevideo.com/help?nodeId=202095490&view-type=c... Hmm, what's relevant to this. Ah, Digital Content, generally. The Service may allow you to: (i) ignoring subscription talk (ii) ignoring rental talk (iii) purchase Digital Content for on-demand viewing over an indefinite period of time ("Purchased Digital Content") So obviously even "buying" the movie only gives it to me for an indefinite period of time. I wonder when it might not become available then. Let's scan more section headers to see if it talks about that. i. Availability of Purchased Digital Content. Purchased Digital Content will generally continue to be available to you for download or streaming from the Service, as applicable, but may become unavailable due to potential content provider licensing restrictions or for other reasons, and Amazon will not be liable to you if Purchased Digital Content becomes unavailable for further download or streaming. I don't get how this is an "undue burden" to read this before forking over $14. It is not fine print, the default styles render it pretty clearly on my screen but you can feel free to resize it to render however you wish. Its not a long document. It has obvious sections. The link to this document was a few pixels away from the Buy button on my screen and was easily visible. It took me less than a minute to understand what I would be buying if I clicked "Buy". They're not hiding this away behind some far away unrelated site or only giving you this after requesting it by mail with legal letterhead. This is pretty out there and open. To me, suggesting that people can't read this might as well be the same as arguing people shouldn't be required to read what's on the face of a ticket. The information is right there, it is not hidden in the slightest. > Event tickets are an established practice Maybe to you, but maybe I've never bought one before. If you're going by "event tickets have been sold for a while", well, so have digital movies with DRM that can make them unavailable. This isn't something that just came out this year, I bought a movie from Amazon Unbox sixteen years ago which had these limitations. How long does it have to exist before it is an "established practice"?
- alexfromapex 4y ago
  > It is not fine print definition of fine print: inconspicuous details or conditions printed in an agreement or contract, especially ones that may prove unfavorable definition of inconspicuous: not clearly visible or attracting attention; not conspicuous. You can note that you had to click on the "Terms" link to get to those... > I don't get how this is an "undue burden" If you have to read 20 paragraphs of text for every digital movie purchase, it is considered an undue burden to me. You can calculate the amount of reading time that would take. I'm not going to. I'm not going to argue with you anymore as I feel I'm wasting my time but in short I don't want to live in a dystopia where companies start foisting time wasting tasks on me until I give in and accept their unfavorable terms on everything.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    > definition of inconspicuous: not clearly visible or attracting attention; not conspicuous. It is a link probably millimeters away from the Buy button on the screen to read before even clicking Buy, and then Buy asks you if you did read it before it charges your card. I don't know how that's "not clearly visible". If there wasn't a link on the page, or was tiny and at the very bottom of the page, sure I might agree but that's not what's going on here. I guess its "fine print" when you don't want to read it but I'm just overly reductive when I don't want to read it. That must be the distinction. > If you have to read 20 paragraphs of text for every digital movie purchase I mean, you don't have to every time. This argument seems to be coming from an emotional rather than logical argument. These terms don't change very often and they're very similar for every digital movie platform. Once you've skimmed it on Amazon there's not really a point to reading it again. I'll look over the ingredients list on a food product once but it's not like every time I eat a Snickers I re-examine the ingredients label. Do you really not bother reading contracts when you agree to them? Your main point is essentially that consumers shouldn't have to actually pay attention in the slightest to what it is they're buying. That they have practically no mental capacity to glance over the terms of a service they're agreeing to when they click "agree". > I don't want to live in a dystopia where companies start foisting time wasting tasks on me until I give in and accept their unfavorable terms on everything. Cool. Nobody is forcing you to buy these movies. I haven't bought a digital movie in decades precisely for these reasons. But I don't act like it is this massive undue burden for me to read about the thing I'm buying. It took one minute for me to scan that document and understand what buying a movie on Amazon is like.

vel0city 4y ago

I want to watch Top Gun: Maverick. I go to the Amazon Store page. https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0B213HG4N/ref=atv_hm_hom_4_c_dR69uw_brws_2_2 https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0B213HG4N/ref=atv_hm... I see "By ordering or viewing, you agree to our Terms[link to terms]" Huh maybe I should look at what I'm buying before I click checkout. https://www.primevideo.com/help?nodeId=202095490&view-type=content-only https://www.primevideo.com/help?nodeId=202095490&view-type=c... Hmm, what's relevant to this. Ah, Digital Content, generally. The Service may allow you to: (i) ignoring subscription talk (ii) ignoring rental talk (iii) purchase Digital Content for on-demand viewing over an indefinite period of time ("Purchased Digital Content") So obviously even "buying" the movie only gives it to me for an indefinite period of time. I wonder when it might not become available then. Let's scan more section headers to see if it talks about that. i. Availability of Purchased Digital Content. Purchased Digital Content will generally continue to be available to you for download or streaming from the Service, as applicable, but may become unavailable due to potential content provider licensing restrictions or for other reasons, and Amazon will not be liable to you if Purchased Digital Content becomes unavailable for further download or streaming. I don't get how this is an "undue burden" to read this before forking over $14. It is not fine print, the default styles render it pretty clearly on my screen but you can feel free to resize it to render however you wish. Its not a long document. It has obvious sections. The link to this document was a few pixels away from the Buy button on my screen and was easily visible. It took me less than a minute to understand what I would be buying if I clicked "Buy". They're not hiding this away behind some far away unrelated site or only giving you this after requesting it by mail with legal letterhead. This is pretty out there and open. To me, suggesting that people can't read this might as well be the same as arguing people shouldn't be required to read what's on the face of a ticket. The information is right there, it is not hidden in the slightest. > Event tickets are an established practice Maybe to you, but maybe I've never bought one before. If you're going by "event tickets have been sold for a while", well, so have digital movies with DRM that can make them unavailable. This isn't something that just came out this year, I bought a movie from Amazon Unbox sixteen years ago which had these limitations. How long does it have to exist before it is an "established practice"?

alexfromapex 4y ago
> It is not fine print definition of fine print: inconspicuous details or conditions printed in an agreement or contract, especially ones that may prove unfavorable definition of inconspicuous: not clearly visible or attracting attention; not conspicuous. You can note that you had to click on the "Terms" link to get to those... > I don't get how this is an "undue burden" If you have to read 20 paragraphs of text for every digital movie purchase, it is considered an undue burden to me. You can calculate the amount of reading time that would take. I'm not going to. I'm not going to argue with you anymore as I feel I'm wasting my time but in short I don't want to live in a dystopia where companies start foisting time wasting tasks on me until I give in and accept their unfavorable terms on everything.
- vel0city 4y ago
  > definition of inconspicuous: not clearly visible or attracting attention; not conspicuous. It is a link probably millimeters away from the Buy button on the screen to read before even clicking Buy, and then Buy asks you if you did read it before it charges your card. I don't know how that's "not clearly visible". If there wasn't a link on the page, or was tiny and at the very bottom of the page, sure I might agree but that's not what's going on here. I guess its "fine print" when you don't want to read it but I'm just overly reductive when I don't want to read it. That must be the distinction. > If you have to read 20 paragraphs of text for every digital movie purchase I mean, you don't have to every time. This argument seems to be coming from an emotional rather than logical argument. These terms don't change very often and they're very similar for every digital movie platform. Once you've skimmed it on Amazon there's not really a point to reading it again. I'll look over the ingredients list on a food product once but it's not like every time I eat a Snickers I re-examine the ingredients label. Do you really not bother reading contracts when you agree to them? Your main point is essentially that consumers shouldn't have to actually pay attention in the slightest to what it is they're buying. That they have practically no mental capacity to glance over the terms of a service they're agreeing to when they click "agree". > I don't want to live in a dystopia where companies start foisting time wasting tasks on me until I give in and accept their unfavorable terms on everything. Cool. Nobody is forcing you to buy these movies. I haven't bought a digital movie in decades precisely for these reasons. But I don't act like it is this massive undue burden for me to read about the thing I'm buying. It took one minute for me to scan that document and understand what buying a movie on Amazon is like.