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For a short time I worked for a major natural health nonprofit. What I learned about homeopathy is that it has no actual medical benefit whatsoever, and at best

For a short time I worked for a major natural health nonprofit. What I learned about homeopathy is that it has no actual medical benefit whatsoever, and at best causes a placebo effect. Additionally, the use of belladonna and nightshade in the production of many homeopathic products should be considered the same as if something was made with arsenic. There has never been a substantive, peer reviewed study showing the benefits of homeopathy anywhere, ever.

dr_dshiv 4y ago
That’s not true. There are plenty of studies (see reply on, for instance, childhood ADHD) showing the benefits of homeopathy as a placebo. The whole concept of homeopathy has always been a mental effect with increased safety over allopathic medicine—and as such, homeopathy remains valuable for home treatments. Better and safer than vitamins and most allopathic medicines precisely because they don’t have real effects. People aren’t machines and treatments don’t need to be rational to be helpful.
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  Just to back myself up here: consider childhood ADHD. Homeopathic pills have an effect size over 0.5 (half a standard deviation). Now, sure, maybe it’s a sugar pill and sure, maybe Ritalin is a better choice. But I think this example shows that homeopathy has an ethical place in human medicine. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41390-022-02127-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41390-022-02127-3
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    - carrotcarrot 4y ago
      It's one of the topics where the grey comments are the only ones with anything interesting to say. The rest are mainly repeating the correct opinion
  - pif 4y ago
    > A limitation of our analysis is, however, that the sample size of the individual studies was generally small [...] Thus, our results can be taken as an encouraging interim finding but should be corroborated by other, long-term studies.
    - dr_dshiv 4y ago
      To be clear, they analyzed 6 studies with an average of 52 patients. So, that’s about 300 or so kids.
    - carrotcarrot 4y ago
      All studies mention limitations (or are supposed to...). If the results were statistically significant this aside doesn't negate them.
  - korm 4y ago
    That is a meta analysis conducted by homeopathic doctors, on studies done by some "homeopathic institutes" and other such associations. It's curious how positive results only come from associates in an industry profiting from trying to convince you that their water, chemically indistinguishable from regular water, has magical healing properties through its memory of past events.
    - dr_dshiv 4y ago
      Water has memory! Or so says a popular snowman. In case you are curious, here is a rigorous research paper on the topic. It is extremely hard to evaluate. Any researcher who would try to do this sort of research is immediately suspect, so it takes a certain type. But I see no reason to dismiss a priori. See what you think (over 250 cites): Roy, R., Tiller, W. A., Bell, I., & Hoover, M. R. (2005). The structure of liquid water; novel insights from materials research; potential relevance to homeopathy. Materials Research Innovations, 9(4), 98-103. https://doi.org/10.1080/14328917.2005.11784911 https://doi.org/10.1080/14328917.2005.11784911
      - korm 4y ago
        I know it does, and that has been cited countless times by homeopathic studies. The problem is that you still need magic for it to have a biological effect. They dismiss this criticism as undiscovered science, in much the same way fairies and leprechauns are undiscovered animals. They'll often cite quantum mechanics and even cosmology, the more esoteric the better, to try to shoehorn science into their beliefs.
        dr_dshiv 4y ago
        No, but really— try reading the article I shared. It’s pretty interesting.
  - vhold 4y ago
    I wouldn't downvote you, but I think you should be aware that meta-analysis is making the case that homeopathy is better than placebo and has an unknown mechanism of working, which is a much bolder claim than you originally made. I disagree with the results of the risk of bias assessments of the studies involved in that meta-analysis: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41390-022-02127-3/tables/1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41390-022-02127-3/tables/1 Out of the 6 studies used, only 2 are from general research institutions. The other 4 are all specialists in homeopathy or private practices using homeopathy. Seems like the risk of bias there would be extremely high.
- 1-more 4y ago
  > The whole concept of homeopathy has always been a mental effect Hahnemann's first homeopathic drug was to cure malaria. Are you saying it was meant to make you think you didn't have malaria?
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1297514/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1297514/ Take a look at the long history of “like cures like.” I should take back my claim that it is “always” viewed as a mental effect— things get a bit squishy in the olden days.
    - 1-more 4y ago
      > Take a look at the long history of “like cures like.” I did. It has nothing to do with the claim that homeopathy was only ever meant to be a mental effect. If you claim that then you're doing God-of-the-gaps but with homeopathy. That document lists a great number of like-cures-like cures from long before Hahnemann. However of note is that they don't claim that dilution makes medicine stronger. Chemo and radiation make you sick as a dog but they cure cancer. If we allow "like cures like" to be the only meaning of homeopathy (its name itself a synecdoche for the dual claims of homeopathy) then tons of real medicine is homeopathy. I get the impression that you're in this field. I once worked at a military contractor where my job was either to waste the tax dollars of productive members of society or enforce a global hegemony that will end human life on earth. There was a path out of there for me, and I'm sure there's a path out of there for you.
      - dr_dshiv 4y ago
        I’m not in the field. But thanks for reading. I don’t know when the dilution became part of the story. As you said, a lot of allopathic medicine is like cures like (such as vaccines).
        1-more 4y ago
        But "allopathic" means the opposite of "like cures like." Hahnemann created what we now call homeopathy and it included the dilution part. Also the like curing like is incidental to cures. It's the tail wagging the dog.
mizzack 4y ago
> Additionally, the use of belladonna and nightshade in the production of many homeopathic products should be considered the same as if something was made with arsenic. Hyoscyamine has been prescribed for decades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoscyamine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoscyamine
- woodruffw 4y ago
  This doesn't contradict what the GP said: you shouldn't ingest nightshade just because we've been able to extract and safely medicate its constituent chemicals.

dr_dshiv 4y ago

That’s not true. There are plenty of studies (see reply on, for instance, childhood ADHD) showing the benefits of homeopathy as a placebo. The whole concept of homeopathy has always been a mental effect with increased safety over allopathic medicine—and as such, homeopathy remains valuable for home treatments. Better and safer than vitamins and most allopathic medicines precisely because they don’t have real effects. People aren’t machines and treatments don’t need to be rational to be helpful.

dr_dshiv 4y ago
Just to back myself up here: consider childhood ADHD. Homeopathic pills have an effect size over 0.5 (half a standard deviation). Now, sure, maybe it’s a sugar pill and sure, maybe Ritalin is a better choice. But I think this example shows that homeopathy has an ethical place in human medicine. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41390-022-02127-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41390-022-02127-3
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  - carrotcarrot 4y ago
    It's one of the topics where the grey comments are the only ones with anything interesting to say. The rest are mainly repeating the correct opinion
- pif 4y ago
  > A limitation of our analysis is, however, that the sample size of the individual studies was generally small [...] Thus, our results can be taken as an encouraging interim finding but should be corroborated by other, long-term studies.
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    To be clear, they analyzed 6 studies with an average of 52 patients. So, that’s about 300 or so kids.
  - carrotcarrot 4y ago
    All studies mention limitations (or are supposed to...). If the results were statistically significant this aside doesn't negate them.
- korm 4y ago
  That is a meta analysis conducted by homeopathic doctors, on studies done by some "homeopathic institutes" and other such associations. It's curious how positive results only come from associates in an industry profiting from trying to convince you that their water, chemically indistinguishable from regular water, has magical healing properties through its memory of past events.
  - dr_dshiv 4y ago
    Water has memory! Or so says a popular snowman. In case you are curious, here is a rigorous research paper on the topic. It is extremely hard to evaluate. Any researcher who would try to do this sort of research is immediately suspect, so it takes a certain type. But I see no reason to dismiss a priori. See what you think (over 250 cites): Roy, R., Tiller, W. A., Bell, I., & Hoover, M. R. (2005). The structure of liquid water; novel insights from materials research; potential relevance to homeopathy. Materials Research Innovations, 9(4), 98-103. https://doi.org/10.1080/14328917.2005.11784911 https://doi.org/10.1080/14328917.2005.11784911
    - korm 4y ago
      I know it does, and that has been cited countless times by homeopathic studies. The problem is that you still need magic for it to have a biological effect. They dismiss this criticism as undiscovered science, in much the same way fairies and leprechauns are undiscovered animals. They'll often cite quantum mechanics and even cosmology, the more esoteric the better, to try to shoehorn science into their beliefs.
      - dr_dshiv 4y ago
        No, but really— try reading the article I shared. It’s pretty interesting.
- vhold 4y ago
  I wouldn't downvote you, but I think you should be aware that meta-analysis is making the case that homeopathy is better than placebo and has an unknown mechanism of working, which is a much bolder claim than you originally made. I disagree with the results of the risk of bias assessments of the studies involved in that meta-analysis: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41390-022-02127-3/tables/1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41390-022-02127-3/tables/1 Out of the 6 studies used, only 2 are from general research institutions. The other 4 are all specialists in homeopathy or private practices using homeopathy. Seems like the risk of bias there would be extremely high.
1-more 4y ago
> The whole concept of homeopathy has always been a mental effect Hahnemann's first homeopathic drug was to cure malaria. Are you saying it was meant to make you think you didn't have malaria?
- dr_dshiv 4y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1297514/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1297514/ Take a look at the long history of “like cures like.” I should take back my claim that it is “always” viewed as a mental effect— things get a bit squishy in the olden days.
  - 1-more 4y ago
    > Take a look at the long history of “like cures like.” I did. It has nothing to do with the claim that homeopathy was only ever meant to be a mental effect. If you claim that then you're doing God-of-the-gaps but with homeopathy. That document lists a great number of like-cures-like cures from long before Hahnemann. However of note is that they don't claim that dilution makes medicine stronger. Chemo and radiation make you sick as a dog but they cure cancer. If we allow "like cures like" to be the only meaning of homeopathy (its name itself a synecdoche for the dual claims of homeopathy) then tons of real medicine is homeopathy. I get the impression that you're in this field. I once worked at a military contractor where my job was either to waste the tax dollars of productive members of society or enforce a global hegemony that will end human life on earth. There was a path out of there for me, and I'm sure there's a path out of there for you.
    - dr_dshiv 4y ago
      I’m not in the field. But thanks for reading. I don’t know when the dilution became part of the story. As you said, a lot of allopathic medicine is like cures like (such as vaccines).
      - 1-more 4y ago
        But "allopathic" means the opposite of "like cures like." Hahnemann created what we now call homeopathy and it included the dilution part. Also the like curing like is incidental to cures. It's the tail wagging the dog.

mizzack 4y ago

> Additionally, the use of belladonna and nightshade in the production of many homeopathic products should be considered the same as if something was made with arsenic. Hyoscyamine has been prescribed for decades https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoscyamine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoscyamine

woodruffw 4y ago
This doesn't contradict what the GP said: you shouldn't ingest nightshade just because we've been able to extract and safely medicate its constituent chemicals.