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The EU tried very hard, for very many years to signal to the industry "do this yourself so you don't have to legislate it, we don't want to legislate it, you do

The EU tried very hard, for very many years to signal to the industry "do this yourself so you don't have to legislate it, we don't want to legislate it, you don't want us to legislate it" but Apple (and only Apple) just refused to listen, so here we are. For micro-USB, they got the industry together in a "memorandum of understanding" to get them to self-implement it without regulation, and it worked great - everyone adopted micro-USB, and then could switch to USB-C, without thinking about legislation with the understanding that the industry would use common standards. The whole rest of the industry adopted the common standard and are looking at Apple "hey if they can do it why can't we?". If the EU doesn't crack down on Apple now, we're going to end up back again with a Samsung charger, a Sony charger etc.

kortilla 4y ago
>The EU tried very hard, for very many years to signal to the industry "do this yourself so you don't have to legislate it, we don't want to legislate it, you don't want us to legislate it" but Apple (and only Apple) just refused to listen, so here we are. This doesn’t make the approach any less interventionist. “Either do what we want or we’ll pass an official regulation for you to do what we want” isn’t much of a choice. Tell me, if Apple truly believes their lightning connector is better, what was the better play here? Intentionally make a worse product (from their perspective) or keep making the better user experience for as long as possible?
- yellowapple 4y ago
  > if Apple truly believes their lightning connector is better, what was the better play here? The better play would've been to open up the Lightning connector specification such that other vendors could standardize on it, and then all users of all phones would have been better off.
- TheCoreh 4y ago
  I don't think Apple believes Lighting is superior. They were heavily involved in the design of USB-C, and that was _after_ Lightning was already in use. They certainly applied learnings from Lightning into it. I believe the most likely reason they stuck with it this long is contracts with accessory makers. After they switched from 30 pin, there were probably concerns from third parties that they would soon switch again, so to ensure everyone was on board with the transition they probably signed agreements to keep it for a while. Notice how it's been exactly 10 years since they launched Lightning and now we are getting rumors of next year's iPhone moving to USB-C, before this legislation comes into effect. Bluetooth Audio and wireless CarPlay are now commonplace, so this is no longer an issue going forward, but wired accessories were a big market in 2012.
  - MayeulC 4y ago
    It wouldn't suprise me if they had 10 yars contracts, as it was originally touted as "the connector for the next decade" https://9to5mac.com/2022/02/28/lightning-launched-as-a-modern-connector-for-the-next-decade-10-years-ago/ https://9to5mac.com/2022/02/28/lightning-launched-as-a-moder...
- kalleboo 4y ago
  My argument was against all the people saying "but this way we're going to be stuck with USB-C until the end of time!". The EU was happy with the market going from micro-USB to USB-C at it's own pace. They didn't want to legislate "use microUSB forever" and they didn't have to. The EU's preferred way would let the industry continue to innovate freely as long as the market converged on common, open standards. But 30% of the market (=Apple) using a proprietary non-licensable plug was too far away from the idea of market experimentation.
- GuB-42 4y ago
  > This doesn’t make the approach any less interventionist. “Either do what we want or we’ll pass an official regulation for you to do what we want” isn’t much of a choice. The jobs of governing bodies is not to give "choice", they are here to make sure people and companies do what they should do, and take action when they don't and it becomes a problem. The UE wanted a universal connector, for a variety of reason, they never wanted to give "choice". However, they also understand that they are not engineers and inventors, and the industry has plenty of these people, so they said "get together and make the best universal connector". And the industry did, first with micro-USB, which was better than most of what was there at the time, then with USB-C, and the EU was happy. Except that one company was a problem, so the EU went back to the industry and said "I said I wanted a universal connector, why isn't the connector universal?", Apple said "Because blah blah blah (fuck you)", and the EU said "OK, we didn't want to do that but it looks like USB-C is good enough for everyone else, so if you want to continue to sell your gadgets in the EU, use USB-C".
  - kortilla 4y ago
    > The jobs of governing bodies is not to give "choice", they are here to make sure people and companies do what they should do Holy shit that’s not the point of a governing body. It’s to set very specific restrictions on what people and companies should not do.
sneak 4y ago
> but Apple (and only Apple) just refused to listen, so here we are. Did consumers find this so onerous that they stopped buying iPhones?
- permo-w 4y ago
  this is an excellent explanation for why this kind of public regulation is necessary. of course they didn't stop buying them. and this is exactly why regulating businesses by consumer behaviour is so so unwise multiple standards may well be easily avoidable, inconvenient and bad for the environment, but people aren't going to change their behaviour, solely because they like Apple's UX
  - sneak 4y ago
    Maybe it’s a sign nothing is broken and it doesn’t need fixing.
    - permo-w 4y ago
      do you think you’re saying that out of logic, or ideology
      - sneak 4y ago
        What is the problem that needs to be fixed via regulation here, given that consumers continue to choose to purchase these devices?
- the_jesus_villa 4y ago
  Maybe this is a feature. When your phone is low on battery, you ask for a charger, and when presented with a normal, plebian charger you get to say "oh, sorry, I need an iphone charger". If people want to get a practical, compatible phone, they don't get an iphone. iphone only exists as a signal. So while the EU is making a good decision for making iphone's more pratical, they are also misunderstanding what an iphone is imo.
- deleted 4y ago
fomine3 4y ago
Yeah, I don't like EU regulating this but this is finally due to Apple.

kortilla 4y ago

>The EU tried very hard, for very many years to signal to the industry "do this yourself so you don't have to legislate it, we don't want to legislate it, you don't want us to legislate it" but Apple (and only Apple) just refused to listen, so here we are. This doesn’t make the approach any less interventionist. “Either do what we want or we’ll pass an official regulation for you to do what we want” isn’t much of a choice. Tell me, if Apple truly believes their lightning connector is better, what was the better play here? Intentionally make a worse product (from their perspective) or keep making the better user experience for as long as possible?

yellowapple 4y ago
> if Apple truly believes their lightning connector is better, what was the better play here? The better play would've been to open up the Lightning connector specification such that other vendors could standardize on it, and then all users of all phones would have been better off.
TheCoreh 4y ago
I don't think Apple believes Lighting is superior. They were heavily involved in the design of USB-C, and that was _after_ Lightning was already in use. They certainly applied learnings from Lightning into it. I believe the most likely reason they stuck with it this long is contracts with accessory makers. After they switched from 30 pin, there were probably concerns from third parties that they would soon switch again, so to ensure everyone was on board with the transition they probably signed agreements to keep it for a while. Notice how it's been exactly 10 years since they launched Lightning and now we are getting rumors of next year's iPhone moving to USB-C, before this legislation comes into effect. Bluetooth Audio and wireless CarPlay are now commonplace, so this is no longer an issue going forward, but wired accessories were a big market in 2012.
- MayeulC 4y ago
  It wouldn't suprise me if they had 10 yars contracts, as it was originally touted as "the connector for the next decade" https://9to5mac.com/2022/02/28/lightning-launched-as-a-modern-connector-for-the-next-decade-10-years-ago/ https://9to5mac.com/2022/02/28/lightning-launched-as-a-moder...
kalleboo 4y ago
My argument was against all the people saying "but this way we're going to be stuck with USB-C until the end of time!". The EU was happy with the market going from micro-USB to USB-C at it's own pace. They didn't want to legislate "use microUSB forever" and they didn't have to. The EU's preferred way would let the industry continue to innovate freely as long as the market converged on common, open standards. But 30% of the market (=Apple) using a proprietary non-licensable plug was too far away from the idea of market experimentation.
GuB-42 4y ago
> This doesn’t make the approach any less interventionist. “Either do what we want or we’ll pass an official regulation for you to do what we want” isn’t much of a choice. The jobs of governing bodies is not to give "choice", they are here to make sure people and companies do what they should do, and take action when they don't and it becomes a problem. The UE wanted a universal connector, for a variety of reason, they never wanted to give "choice". However, they also understand that they are not engineers and inventors, and the industry has plenty of these people, so they said "get together and make the best universal connector". And the industry did, first with micro-USB, which was better than most of what was there at the time, then with USB-C, and the EU was happy. Except that one company was a problem, so the EU went back to the industry and said "I said I wanted a universal connector, why isn't the connector universal?", Apple said "Because blah blah blah (fuck you)", and the EU said "OK, we didn't want to do that but it looks like USB-C is good enough for everyone else, so if you want to continue to sell your gadgets in the EU, use USB-C".
- kortilla 4y ago
  > The jobs of governing bodies is not to give "choice", they are here to make sure people and companies do what they should do Holy shit that’s not the point of a governing body. It’s to set very specific restrictions on what people and companies should not do.

sneak 4y ago

> but Apple (and only Apple) just refused to listen, so here we are. Did consumers find this so onerous that they stopped buying iPhones?

permo-w 4y ago
this is an excellent explanation for why this kind of public regulation is necessary. of course they didn't stop buying them. and this is exactly why regulating businesses by consumer behaviour is so so unwise multiple standards may well be easily avoidable, inconvenient and bad for the environment, but people aren't going to change their behaviour, solely because they like Apple's UX
- sneak 4y ago
  Maybe it’s a sign nothing is broken and it doesn’t need fixing.
  - permo-w 4y ago
    do you think you’re saying that out of logic, or ideology
    - sneak 4y ago
      What is the problem that needs to be fixed via regulation here, given that consumers continue to choose to purchase these devices?
the_jesus_villa 4y ago
Maybe this is a feature. When your phone is low on battery, you ask for a charger, and when presented with a normal, plebian charger you get to say "oh, sorry, I need an iphone charger". If people want to get a practical, compatible phone, they don't get an iphone. iphone only exists as a signal. So while the EU is making a good decision for making iphone's more pratical, they are also misunderstanding what an iphone is imo.
deleted 4y ago

fomine3 4y ago

Yeah, I don't like EU regulating this but this is finally due to Apple.