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> You understood correctly that quantum mechanics cannot be based on some hidden variable we haven't or cannot find. That's not true. The only thing we know is

> You understood correctly that quantum mechanics cannot be based on some hidden variable we haven't or cannot find. That's not true. The only thing we know is that the above appears to be true, but since we do not actually know the mechanism behind quantum mechanics we will be in this limbo until (if ever) we find the actual rules.

n4r9 4y ago
Actually, the power of Bell's theorem is that it applies to any physical theory which attempts to explain observed correlations in experiments on entangled particles. It really does say "No matter what's behind quantum theory, we know it isn't like this". I do have a small gripe with the above comment, in that Bell's theorem only rules out local hidden variables. Some take the view that Bohmian mechanics is an formulation of quantum theory which employs hidden variables, just explicitly non-local ones.
- q-big 4y ago
  > I do have a small gripe with the above comment, in that Bell's theorem only rules out local hidden variables. Some take the view that Bohmian mechanics is an formulation of quantum theory which employs hidden variables, just explicitly non-local ones. Superdeterminism also allows local hidden variable theory without violating Bell's theorem: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdeterminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdeterminism A 2013 interview with the Nobel Laureate Gerard 't Hooft on this topic: > https://spookyactionbook.com/2013/10/07/does-some-deeper-level-of-physics-underlie-quantum-mechanics-an-interview-with-nobelist-gerard-t-hooft/ https://spookyactionbook.com/2013/10/07/does-some-deeper-lev... A paper by Sabine Hossenfelder and Tim Palmer: Sabine Hossenfelder and Tim Palmer; Rethinking Superdeterminism > https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2020.00139/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2020.00139... In 2016, 't Hooft published a textbook on some specific points of superdeterminism: Gerard 't Hooft; The Cellular Automaton Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics > https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-41285-6 https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-41285-6
  - n4r9 4y ago
    It's true in a sense that you can get around Bell's theorem by supposing that Alice and Bob's mesasurement choices are strongly pre-correlated in a specific way. But then I feel you end up with this sort of bizarre universal conspiracy set up just to make humans believe in quantum theory.
    - q-big 4y ago
      If you have such an objection, you might be interested in section 4 (in particular section 4.1 and 4.2) of the linked paper Sabine Hossenfelder and Tim Palmer; Rethinking Superdeterminism > https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2020.00139/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2020.00139...
      - n4r9 4y ago
        > Bell's and similar examples that rest on arguments from fine-tuning (or sensitivity, or conspiracy) all implicitly assume that there is no simple way to mathematically express the allowed (or likely) initial states that give rise to the predictions of quantum mechanics. I mean, this is the crux of it. You'd have to have some convincing way of explaining why states "give rise to the predictions of quantum mechanics" for all possible measurement choices yet to be made by anyone. It still feels conspiratorial to me, having read that whole section! If someone were to show me a simple mathematical expression as defined above, I would be open to it. As far as I can tell, all this article is saying is "maybe it's possible".
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        q-big 4y ago
        > If someone were to show me a simple mathematical expression as defined above, I would be open to it. As far as I can tell, all this article is saying is "maybe it's possible". Finding such a simple mathematical expression is exactly what research into this direction is for. But obtaining such is rather the end result that one hopes for.
heckerhut 4y ago
But there are constraints on those hidden mechanics as well. Not sure hidden variables theory survives these constraints. Can someone more knowledgeable talk on this?

n4r9 4y ago

Actually, the power of Bell's theorem is that it applies to any physical theory which attempts to explain observed correlations in experiments on entangled particles. It really does say "No matter what's behind quantum theory, we know it isn't like this". I do have a small gripe with the above comment, in that Bell's theorem only rules out local hidden variables. Some take the view that Bohmian mechanics is an formulation of quantum theory which employs hidden variables, just explicitly non-local ones.

q-big 4y ago
> I do have a small gripe with the above comment, in that Bell's theorem only rules out local hidden variables. Some take the view that Bohmian mechanics is an formulation of quantum theory which employs hidden variables, just explicitly non-local ones. Superdeterminism also allows local hidden variable theory without violating Bell's theorem: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdeterminism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdeterminism A 2013 interview with the Nobel Laureate Gerard 't Hooft on this topic: > https://spookyactionbook.com/2013/10/07/does-some-deeper-level-of-physics-underlie-quantum-mechanics-an-interview-with-nobelist-gerard-t-hooft/ https://spookyactionbook.com/2013/10/07/does-some-deeper-lev... A paper by Sabine Hossenfelder and Tim Palmer: Sabine Hossenfelder and Tim Palmer; Rethinking Superdeterminism > https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2020.00139/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2020.00139... In 2016, 't Hooft published a textbook on some specific points of superdeterminism: Gerard 't Hooft; The Cellular Automaton Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics > https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-41285-6 https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-319-41285-6
- n4r9 4y ago
  It's true in a sense that you can get around Bell's theorem by supposing that Alice and Bob's mesasurement choices are strongly pre-correlated in a specific way. But then I feel you end up with this sort of bizarre universal conspiracy set up just to make humans believe in quantum theory.
  - q-big 4y ago
    If you have such an objection, you might be interested in section 4 (in particular section 4.1 and 4.2) of the linked paper Sabine Hossenfelder and Tim Palmer; Rethinking Superdeterminism > https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2020.00139/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphy.2020.00139...
    - n4r9 4y ago
      > Bell's and similar examples that rest on arguments from fine-tuning (or sensitivity, or conspiracy) all implicitly assume that there is no simple way to mathematically express the allowed (or likely) initial states that give rise to the predictions of quantum mechanics. I mean, this is the crux of it. You'd have to have some convincing way of explaining why states "give rise to the predictions of quantum mechanics" for all possible measurement choices yet to be made by anyone. It still feels conspiratorial to me, having read that whole section! If someone were to show me a simple mathematical expression as defined above, I would be open to it. As far as I can tell, all this article is saying is "maybe it's possible".
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - q-big 4y ago
        > If someone were to show me a simple mathematical expression as defined above, I would be open to it. As far as I can tell, all this article is saying is "maybe it's possible". Finding such a simple mathematical expression is exactly what research into this direction is for. But obtaining such is rather the end result that one hopes for.

heckerhut 4y ago

But there are constraints on those hidden mechanics as well. Not sure hidden variables theory survives these constraints. Can someone more knowledgeable talk on this?