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Seconded. "Practice makes perfect" is an aphorism as old as the ages. I would like to add though that "being good at something" is not the path to enlightenmen

by kleiba 4y ago

Seconded. "Practice makes perfect" is an aphorism as old as the ages. I would like to add though that "being good at something" is not the path to enlightenment. Try "something you enjoy" instead, and you may be happier in the end. Given an initial epsilon of talent, the above adage posits that you will get better at it, and in my experience, motivation to do a task is central predictor of how good you will become at it.

globular-toast 4y ago
I disagree with "practice makes perfect". You can keep practising something badly and you'll only get better at doing it badly. This can be seen everywhere. Second language speakers who have no interest in studying the language will continue to sound very non-native after decades of daily use. Musicians build bad habits that hold them back and take a long time to "unlearn". Programmers continue using the same old tools and techniques they learnt when they were students. You don't just get better by practising.
- tempxyz 4y ago
  This is where you stop doing mindlessly and analyze.
- going_ham 4y ago
  Yes! That is why deliberate practice requires some mentors or guiding factor. It's really hard to invest in deliberate pratice and most of us overlook it! When practicing quality > quantity. I gave up a lot of hobbies because I didn't have mentor or guidance factor to help me get past the wall. You can only learn upto a certain point on your own. After that, it requires quite a lot of attention and focus to not suck.
- hnfong 4y ago
  Indeed "practice makes perfect" isn't enough. But the context being "something you enjoy", being passionate about something usually comes with self-motivation to improve and become better at something, and usually one finds a way to get better. The stagnation you mentioned is usually with people who aren't that passionate about the things they are practicing, or just using it as a means to some other ends.
- kleiba 4y ago
  I don't buy your second language users example because I don't think that "use" necessarily equals "practice". It's usually easier to make major gains at the beginning of the learning journey, and things naturally plateau after a while, unless you put in more effort. Simply speaking the learned language at the level you have already reached will hardly improve your mastership (although I think it will minimally), you need to actually try to improve - which, to me, is the what practicing means.
  - xani_ 4y ago
    That's kinda irrelevant tho ? You can practice with purpose yet still practice it badly. You can also practice with purpose and get to a peak of your ability.
Sakos 4y ago
I've reached a point where I don't think you should be looking for something you enjoy. I don't particularly enjoy programming. I didn't start programming because I think it's fun. I do it because it's satisfying. I like understanding and solving difficult problems. I like doing research. I like writing. I like working with others. Programming was one of a huge number of possibilities that I could've pursued with these characteristics, but life pushed me in that direction and that's where I ended up. I get to do the things I like to do, but the things I like to do aren't necessarily "programming". There is a fundamental shift of perspective that I think is necessary for people to find work that will fulfill them. More important is to look at what things you enjoy, and then figuring out what exactly appeals to you, really understanding yourself and how you tick, and how that can be applied elsewhere. I spent much of my childhood gaming (CS, Battlefield, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Deus Ex, C&C RA2, Dune 2, etc.). It was fun, sure, and going by "look for something you enjoy", maybe I should've become a pro-gamer. But if I look at how I actually spent my time, there are much different conclusions to be drawn about what I like. I liked being in a team with a collective goal. I liked the communication (and arguing). I liked solving situational challenges. I liked being challenged. I liked researching strategies, techniques, and everything around metagaming (countless hours "wasted" on TeamLiquid). I liked learning new things and incrementally improving my skills. I liked documenting and explaining things. It's 100% clear how that translated in a career context, but at first glance, shooting people in CS was just "fun".
- kleiba 4y ago
  I have a hard time thinking of an activity that I find satisfying but don't enjoy.
  - Sakos 4y ago
    Trying to find a bug for 8 hours isn't fun or enjoyable to me. But it is satisfying and I feel great afterwards and it's exactly what I want to be doing.
    - antasvara 4y ago
      It feels like you're defining "fun" or "enjoyable" differently than most people would. Most people don't find their "fun" activities enjoyable all the time. Running can be fun, but it also is tiring and sucks sometimes. Practicing a musical instrument isn't the most enjoyable, but playing in a band and nailing songs is. Lifting isn't "fun," but excelling at a sport is. Point being that not liking the boring parts of an activity, but still finding the activity as a whole satisfying, is something that most people would consider to be an activity you enjoy.

by kleiba 4y ago

globular-toast 4y ago

I disagree with "practice makes perfect". You can keep practising something badly and you'll only get better at doing it badly. This can be seen everywhere. Second language speakers who have no interest in studying the language will continue to sound very non-native after decades of daily use. Musicians build bad habits that hold them back and take a long time to "unlearn". Programmers continue using the same old tools and techniques they learnt when they were students. You don't just get better by practising.

tempxyz 4y ago
This is where you stop doing mindlessly and analyze.
going_ham 4y ago
Yes! That is why deliberate practice requires some mentors or guiding factor. It's really hard to invest in deliberate pratice and most of us overlook it! When practicing quality > quantity. I gave up a lot of hobbies because I didn't have mentor or guidance factor to help me get past the wall. You can only learn upto a certain point on your own. After that, it requires quite a lot of attention and focus to not suck.
hnfong 4y ago
Indeed "practice makes perfect" isn't enough. But the context being "something you enjoy", being passionate about something usually comes with self-motivation to improve and become better at something, and usually one finds a way to get better. The stagnation you mentioned is usually with people who aren't that passionate about the things they are practicing, or just using it as a means to some other ends.
kleiba 4y ago
I don't buy your second language users example because I don't think that "use" necessarily equals "practice". It's usually easier to make major gains at the beginning of the learning journey, and things naturally plateau after a while, unless you put in more effort. Simply speaking the learned language at the level you have already reached will hardly improve your mastership (although I think it will minimally), you need to actually try to improve - which, to me, is the what practicing means.
- xani_ 4y ago
  That's kinda irrelevant tho ? You can practice with purpose yet still practice it badly. You can also practice with purpose and get to a peak of your ability.

Sakos 4y ago

I've reached a point where I don't think you should be looking for something you enjoy. I don't particularly enjoy programming. I didn't start programming because I think it's fun. I do it because it's satisfying. I like understanding and solving difficult problems. I like doing research. I like writing. I like working with others. Programming was one of a huge number of possibilities that I could've pursued with these characteristics, but life pushed me in that direction and that's where I ended up. I get to do the things I like to do, but the things I like to do aren't necessarily "programming". There is a fundamental shift of perspective that I think is necessary for people to find work that will fulfill them. More important is to look at what things you enjoy, and then figuring out what exactly appeals to you, really understanding yourself and how you tick, and how that can be applied elsewhere. I spent much of my childhood gaming (CS, Battlefield, Starcraft, Warcraft 3, Deus Ex, C&C RA2, Dune 2, etc.). It was fun, sure, and going by "look for something you enjoy", maybe I should've become a pro-gamer. But if I look at how I actually spent my time, there are much different conclusions to be drawn about what I like. I liked being in a team with a collective goal. I liked the communication (and arguing). I liked solving situational challenges. I liked being challenged. I liked researching strategies, techniques, and everything around metagaming (countless hours "wasted" on TeamLiquid). I liked learning new things and incrementally improving my skills. I liked documenting and explaining things. It's 100% clear how that translated in a career context, but at first glance, shooting people in CS was just "fun".

kleiba 4y ago
I have a hard time thinking of an activity that I find satisfying but don't enjoy.
- Sakos 4y ago
  Trying to find a bug for 8 hours isn't fun or enjoyable to me. But it is satisfying and I feel great afterwards and it's exactly what I want to be doing.
  - antasvara 4y ago
    It feels like you're defining "fun" or "enjoyable" differently than most people would. Most people don't find their "fun" activities enjoyable all the time. Running can be fun, but it also is tiring and sucks sometimes. Practicing a musical instrument isn't the most enjoyable, but playing in a band and nailing songs is. Lifting isn't "fun," but excelling at a sport is. Point being that not liking the boring parts of an activity, but still finding the activity as a whole satisfying, is something that most people would consider to be an activity you enjoy.