4 ms·

> Russia mass at the borders and shouted for months that they would invade if their demands were not met. Except that’s not what happened. They spent months bu

by mint2 4y ago

> Russia mass at the borders and shouted for months that they would invade if their demands were not met. Except that’s not what happened. They spent months building up troops repeatedly claiming it was just a military training exercise, denying they were building up to invade and that they had “no plans to invade Ukraine” until “whoops we invaded haha we were lying about the drills after all” Yes they were making noise about nato as a pretense to Putin’s imperialism, because concern of nato is a farce. But they continually denied plans to invade. This wasn’t very long ago. It was earlier this year, why are people getting details so wrong?

s1artibartfast 4y ago
>Yes they were making noise about nato as a pretense to Putin’s imperialism, because concern of nato is a farce. Are you seriously claiming that Russia didn't care if Ukraine was in NATO? There are so many public statements from Russia before the invasion, about their red line and demands. Like you said, this was less than a year ago. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43334/nato-pushes-back-against-russian-president-putins-red-lines-over-ukraine https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43334/nato-pushes-back... https://www.npr.org/2022/01/12/1072413634/russia-nato-ukraine https://www.npr.org/2022/01/12/1072413634/russia-nato-ukrain... https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-delivers-response-to-russian-demands-amid-ukraine-crisis-11643220014 https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-delivers-response-to-russia... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-ukraine-putin-nato-invasion-demands-rcna9116 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-ukraine-putin-nato...
- mint2 4y ago
  > There are so many public statements from Russia before the invasion, about their red line and demands. Sorry, that premise is crucially flawed. It requires believing the Russian government and taking what they say at face value. That’s frankly absurd. Don’t do it. There is the saying “fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.” Russia is notorious for blatant lies and has been for decades. Let’s review the facts just in the case of nato and Ukraine: In January 2022 Russia’s top diplomat, Sergei lavrov, repeatedly and angrily denied Russia had plans to invaded despite massing 100k troops. A couple weeks later those same troops invaded Ukraine. That’s literally Russia’s government blatantly and obvious lying. Next, Russia claims it was all about feeling threatened by Nato. Their solution was to do the action that was most likely to strengthen nato and has literally spurred countries like Sweden and Finland who had no previous intention of Joining nato to rush for membership. Russias noise about nato is a baseless pretense. Did you know Russia literally imprisons people for calling their war in Ukraine a “war”? Russia doesn’t just lie, it criminalizes truth. But sure be my guest, take Russian government statements at face value.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    You are ignoring the fact that Russia has been complaining about NATO for years, and made their red line declination months and months prior to invasion. I absolutely believe that had NATO stayed out of Ukraine, Russia would not have invaded. I don't have to trust what Russia says, the facts speak for themselves. NATO declared Ukraine will be part of NATO and troops were building on the boarder within months. They said it was a red line, it was crossed, and they invaded! The US has been invading Russian allies for decades and now they are setting up shop in Eastern Europe. What would you think if you were in their shoes?
    - mint2 4y ago
      > “NATO declared Ukraine will be part of NATO and troops were building on the boarder within months” Russia Today and Sputnik are great info sources. you’re welcome to take Russia reasoning at face value, we’ll have to agree to disagree on whether that makes sense. Their red lines were just as much unserious jokes/farces similar to Sergei lavrov declaring to the world they had no intention of invading literally right before the start of invasion. Take them at face value, everyone has the right to make their own assessment. But Putin knew invading would strengthen nato. He didn’t care. It was never about nato.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        What do you think it was about instead? Simple bloodlust, conquest, and imperialism? Do you see how one line of reasoning is consistent with rational actors and the other relies pathological boogeymen?
        mint2 4y ago
        > imperialism and restoring the lost empire That’s part of it. And yes Russia use twisted pretenses about nato and nazis as boogeyman quite a lot and it works wonders judging by the way this thread is going.

by mint2 4y ago

s1artibartfast 4y ago

>Yes they were making noise about nato as a pretense to Putin’s imperialism, because concern of nato is a farce. Are you seriously claiming that Russia didn't care if Ukraine was in NATO? There are so many public statements from Russia before the invasion, about their red line and demands. Like you said, this was less than a year ago. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43334/nato-pushes-back-against-russian-president-putins-red-lines-over-ukraine https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43334/nato-pushes-back... https://www.npr.org/2022/01/12/1072413634/russia-nato-ukraine https://www.npr.org/2022/01/12/1072413634/russia-nato-ukrain... https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-delivers-response-to-russian-demands-amid-ukraine-crisis-11643220014 https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-delivers-response-to-russia... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-ukraine-putin-nato-invasion-demands-rcna9116 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/russia-ukraine-putin-nato...

mint2 4y ago
> There are so many public statements from Russia before the invasion, about their red line and demands. Sorry, that premise is crucially flawed. It requires believing the Russian government and taking what they say at face value. That’s frankly absurd. Don’t do it. There is the saying “fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.” Russia is notorious for blatant lies and has been for decades. Let’s review the facts just in the case of nato and Ukraine: In January 2022 Russia’s top diplomat, Sergei lavrov, repeatedly and angrily denied Russia had plans to invaded despite massing 100k troops. A couple weeks later those same troops invaded Ukraine. That’s literally Russia’s government blatantly and obvious lying. Next, Russia claims it was all about feeling threatened by Nato. Their solution was to do the action that was most likely to strengthen nato and has literally spurred countries like Sweden and Finland who had no previous intention of Joining nato to rush for membership. Russias noise about nato is a baseless pretense. Did you know Russia literally imprisons people for calling their war in Ukraine a “war”? Russia doesn’t just lie, it criminalizes truth. But sure be my guest, take Russian government statements at face value.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  You are ignoring the fact that Russia has been complaining about NATO for years, and made their red line declination months and months prior to invasion. I absolutely believe that had NATO stayed out of Ukraine, Russia would not have invaded. I don't have to trust what Russia says, the facts speak for themselves. NATO declared Ukraine will be part of NATO and troops were building on the boarder within months. They said it was a red line, it was crossed, and they invaded! The US has been invading Russian allies for decades and now they are setting up shop in Eastern Europe. What would you think if you were in their shoes?
  - mint2 4y ago
    > “NATO declared Ukraine will be part of NATO and troops were building on the boarder within months” Russia Today and Sputnik are great info sources. you’re welcome to take Russia reasoning at face value, we’ll have to agree to disagree on whether that makes sense. Their red lines were just as much unserious jokes/farces similar to Sergei lavrov declaring to the world they had no intention of invading literally right before the start of invasion. Take them at face value, everyone has the right to make their own assessment. But Putin knew invading would strengthen nato. He didn’t care. It was never about nato.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      What do you think it was about instead? Simple bloodlust, conquest, and imperialism? Do you see how one line of reasoning is consistent with rational actors and the other relies pathological boogeymen?
      - mint2 4y ago
        > imperialism and restoring the lost empire That’s part of it. And yes Russia use twisted pretenses about nato and nazis as boogeyman quite a lot and it works wonders judging by the way this thread is going.