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If we consider a sequence of possible events: 1) Ukraine continues to push Russia back 2) Putin, cornered, resorts to nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons

If we consider a sequence of possible events: 1) Ukraine continues to push Russia back 2) Putin, cornered, resorts to nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons 3) Hell ensues (Note that I'm not saying this is going to happen. Anyone who claims to know that is misguided.) Then we have to consider alternatives where no one gets everything they want, regardless of who is in the right. Wars don't always end in unconditional surrender, like WW II, and sometimes no one feels good about it. So good on Elon for stepping up. His is not the only such alternative: Putin getting asylum in a third country is another one.

sidibe 4y ago
Ukraine thinks they'll get everything they want because they are winning AND what they want is completely reasonable to the rest of the world, and probably to most Russians as they sober up. If they start sending home the involuntarily mobilized in body bags that might tip the scales for Russians. Elons ignorant tweet involves Ukraine, which is winning, giving Putin everything he wants just to not hurt Putin's feelings.
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  Getting everything you want is always seductive.
- tuatoru 4y ago
  What Putin wants is a good whipping. If Elon really wanted to help he could supply a couple of dominatrices to do the job.
- bamboozled 4y ago
  Why would it tip the scales for the Russians? It’s not going to just make the Russians become more organised and start winning the war ? Maybe you think it will make Russians more angry and motivated to kill people on Ukraine, mostly though people will just think war is stupid and wasteful.
  - sidibe 4y ago
    It'll tip them from not participating in politics to taking whatever actions it takes to remove Putin
TheAlchemist 4y ago
That basically suggests that maybe it's a good idea to sacrifice part of Ukraine and the people living there for some kind of temporary peace ? 3 days ago was an anniversary of the last time this idea was implemented in Europe: https://twitter.com/MilHistNow/status/1576085500359675904 https://twitter.com/MilHistNow/status/1576085500359675904 It didn't end well - nor it would this time.
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  I think you need to look at ALL wars and conflicts through history, and not just pick one example. Most of them didn't end in complete victory for one side. I'm not going to address a straw man argument like "maybe it's a good idea to sacrifice part of Ukraine and the people living there for some kind of temporary peace."
  - TheAlchemist 4y ago
    Agree on your first point - not sure it happened frequently though. As for Ukrainian people - living under Russian occupation is hell - that’s why every single country that experienced it in Eastern Europe is helping Ukraine like there is no tomorrow.
    - cmurf 4y ago
      Circa 1994, Poland insisted on joining NATO, otherwise they would start their own nuclear weapons program. Why? Because they didn't trust Russia. Ukraine voluntarily entered the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty, via the Budapest Memorandum. U.S. U.K. Russia are signatories to these treaties too.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
cmurf 4y ago
I understand why people are pissing their pants over a hypothetical more than the reality. It takes a lot of courage to confront evil. It even takes courage to admit evil exists. Not everyone has this capability. Ukraine has a right to defend itself until Russia has withdrawn from Ukraine, and complies with their prior agreements[1], all of which they agreed to voluntarily. So long as they're not complying with those agreements, why bother making another one that they'll just piss on? It was a Soviet jurist who referred to wars of aggression as the supreme international crime. The worst wars have all been wars of aggression. That is why it is never to be committed. For the first time in history a nuclear armed nation, that's also a founding member of the UN, and permanent member of the Security Council, has directly violated the most important proscription in all of international law. The very reason why the UN exists, and the Security Council exists, is to prevent exactly what Russia alone has done. Compromise with evil will completely undo what we thought we had learned from WW1 and WW2. There is something you don't fear enough, because you can't possibly have an imagination for it, given what you wrote. Unwinding the current international system of laws is a demand to resume world war, because obviously we did not learn the lesson the first two times around. Abandoning the lessons we have, however imperfect, is what leads to hell! Not defending the most important lessons! Chamberlain also thought about giving in to tyranny. Tyranny made a peace agreement with him. And then reneged two years later, starting WW2 after it had sufficiently built up its industrial military capacity. We have very good reason to know if Ukraine doesn't defend itself, it will be exterminated. Russia has published a genocide handbook akin to Mein Kampf [2]. One of the lessons from history is, when they tell you they want to commit genocide, believe them. Whereas Russia could withdraw at any time, and Russians would accept it because they live in tyranny. They'd have no choice but to accept it. We are dealing with this now because the world ignored the invasion in 2014. We're lucky Putin is so badly prepared in 2022. [1] https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions [2] https://human-rights.cmc.edu/2022/04/14/russias-genocide-handbook/ https://human-rights.cmc.edu/2022/04/14/russias-genocide-han...
- Cupertino95014 4y ago
  Maybe try again without resorting to the Munich or WW II analogies.

sidibe 4y ago

Ukraine thinks they'll get everything they want because they are winning AND what they want is completely reasonable to the rest of the world, and probably to most Russians as they sober up. If they start sending home the involuntarily mobilized in body bags that might tip the scales for Russians. Elons ignorant tweet involves Ukraine, which is winning, giving Putin everything he wants just to not hurt Putin's feelings.

AlbertCory 4y ago
Getting everything you want is always seductive.
tuatoru 4y ago
What Putin wants is a good whipping. If Elon really wanted to help he could supply a couple of dominatrices to do the job.
bamboozled 4y ago
Why would it tip the scales for the Russians? It’s not going to just make the Russians become more organised and start winning the war ? Maybe you think it will make Russians more angry and motivated to kill people on Ukraine, mostly though people will just think war is stupid and wasteful.
- sidibe 4y ago
  It'll tip them from not participating in politics to taking whatever actions it takes to remove Putin

TheAlchemist 4y ago

That basically suggests that maybe it's a good idea to sacrifice part of Ukraine and the people living there for some kind of temporary peace ? 3 days ago was an anniversary of the last time this idea was implemented in Europe: https://twitter.com/MilHistNow/status/1576085500359675904 https://twitter.com/MilHistNow/status/1576085500359675904 It didn't end well - nor it would this time.

AlbertCory 4y ago
I think you need to look at ALL wars and conflicts through history, and not just pick one example. Most of them didn't end in complete victory for one side. I'm not going to address a straw man argument like "maybe it's a good idea to sacrifice part of Ukraine and the people living there for some kind of temporary peace."
- TheAlchemist 4y ago
  Agree on your first point - not sure it happened frequently though. As for Ukrainian people - living under Russian occupation is hell - that’s why every single country that experienced it in Eastern Europe is helping Ukraine like there is no tomorrow.
  - cmurf 4y ago
    Circa 1994, Poland insisted on joining NATO, otherwise they would start their own nuclear weapons program. Why? Because they didn't trust Russia. Ukraine voluntarily entered the Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty, via the Budapest Memorandum. U.S. U.K. Russia are signatories to these treaties too.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

cmurf 4y ago

I understand why people are pissing their pants over a hypothetical more than the reality. It takes a lot of courage to confront evil. It even takes courage to admit evil exists. Not everyone has this capability. Ukraine has a right to defend itself until Russia has withdrawn from Ukraine, and complies with their prior agreements[1], all of which they agreed to voluntarily. So long as they're not complying with those agreements, why bother making another one that they'll just piss on? It was a Soviet jurist who referred to wars of aggression as the supreme international crime. The worst wars have all been wars of aggression. That is why it is never to be committed. For the first time in history a nuclear armed nation, that's also a founding member of the UN, and permanent member of the Security Council, has directly violated the most important proscription in all of international law. The very reason why the UN exists, and the Security Council exists, is to prevent exactly what Russia alone has done. Compromise with evil will completely undo what we thought we had learned from WW1 and WW2. There is something you don't fear enough, because you can't possibly have an imagination for it, given what you wrote. Unwinding the current international system of laws is a demand to resume world war, because obviously we did not learn the lesson the first two times around. Abandoning the lessons we have, however imperfect, is what leads to hell! Not defending the most important lessons! Chamberlain also thought about giving in to tyranny. Tyranny made a peace agreement with him. And then reneged two years later, starting WW2 after it had sufficiently built up its industrial military capacity. We have very good reason to know if Ukraine doesn't defend itself, it will be exterminated. Russia has published a genocide handbook akin to Mein Kampf [2]. One of the lessons from history is, when they tell you they want to commit genocide, believe them. Whereas Russia could withdraw at any time, and Russians would accept it because they live in tyranny. They'd have no choice but to accept it. We are dealing with this now because the world ignored the invasion in 2014. We're lucky Putin is so badly prepared in 2022. [1] https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter https://www.un.org/en/about-us/un-charter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions [2] https://human-rights.cmc.edu/2022/04/14/russias-genocide-handbook/ https://human-rights.cmc.edu/2022/04/14/russias-genocide-han...

Cupertino95014 4y ago
Maybe try again without resorting to the Munich or WW II analogies.