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Podcast on (Massive) Ad-Fraud

lifeisstillgood 4y ago
This came from another thread (and is by user iamacyborg interviewing Augustine Fou) but it is a great listen - clearly explaining the ad (fraud) market. I feel Inhave a better grasp of the mechanics now and will never ever buy online ads again...
buttersbrian 4y ago
I have built a social advertising marketplace in another life. It is RIPE with fraud that can be quite difficult to slow or truly stop.
CharlesW 4y ago
The actual title: "$60 Million or $60 Billion, the Ad Fraud Question"
- cglong 4y ago
  The URL should also be updated to the official one: https://www.mql.fm/002-60-million-60-billion-ad-fraud-question-augustine-fou https://www.mql.fm/002-60-million-60-billion-ad-fraud-questi...
  - cobertos 4y ago
    This URL also has a play button that does not require DRM (DRM decoding API I'm guessing?). When I click on the original URL I get "No DRM" but with this URL it works fine for me.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
EricE 4y ago
Twitter is just the tip of the iceberg.
ipsum2 4y ago
(Hot) alternate take to ad-fraud - it doesn't matter what percentage of ad views are bots. The only thing that matters is that CLV (customer lifetime value) > cost per conversion.
- rebelos 4y ago
  Of course it matters: (1) at the macro level, fraud is a tax on the whole ecosystem that ultimately yields higher prices for consumers and (2) at the micro level, relatively better ad efficiency (less fraud) can drive business competitiveness (or even viability, in extreme cases).
  - chasebank 4y ago
    In reference to (1) - I'm not so sure this is the case. Competition amongst advertisers will drive up CPM / CPC until the point of margin. The real loser here is the publisher, wasting money on server bandwidth. As an example, if the max CPA for furniture suppliers is $500, if we eliminate ad fraud, furniture suppliers won't get a cheaper CPA, they'll competitively bid up the CPM / CPC until the point of a $500 CPA once again.
    - reillyse 4y ago
      (Ignoring the premise that this is an efficient market - which it very much isn't) So ad fraud is a victimless crime? Where is the money that the fraudsters are earning coming from? Who are they taking that money from?
      - cdbyr 4y ago
        It's an interesting question. If the fraud were evenly spread out, and if all advertisers had the same goal, the equilibrium bid just adjusts for less valuable clicks/interaction/etc (in line with what the earlier commenter mentioned), and the advertisers pay the same amount as in a world without fraud. Fraud isn't evenly spread out though, and advertisers are sometimes unaware, so it probably does hurt them. The other loss is from honest publishers (think newspaper websites, etc.) - they're having to split payments with fraudsters, even though they're providing all the value to the advertiser. Downstream effects mean the publisher is probably producing less, showing more ads, or using other ways to replace ad income.
WirelessGigabit 4y ago
Lol 300 parameters collected to see if an impression is real? So they’re sorting arrays to see I’m a real user? Wtf. Go burn someone else’s CPU, I’ll install an adblocker. Also, an app on iOS, even when malicious, can not read outside of its app boundaries, like passwords etc. It cannot side-load other apps. Only on Android.
- from 4y ago
  Here's a post from 2020 about the data one anti bot firm collects: https://smitop.com/post/whiteops-data/ https://smitop.com/post/whiteops-data/ They collect even more now.
dereg 4y ago
Forgive me for not RTFA first but I'd like to collect some impressions here. What platforms are people seeing the most suspicious behavior on? I've found that an overwhelming majority of my Reddit engagements are garbage. Most clicks spend less than a couple seconds on my site.
- etempleton 4y ago
  - Twitter delivers an unnatural amount of traffic with minimal conversions. If it isn’t bots it is a lot of accidental clicks. It is almost certainly bots. - Google Display is always suspect. Really any traditional website display ads are pretty terrible unless you stick to strictly remarketing. - Google and Microsoft Search IF you do not turn off partner search has a lot of ad fraud. If you turn these off and target properly results are very good.

This came from another thread (and is by user iamacyborg interviewing Augustine Fou) but it is a great listen - clearly explaining the ad (fraud) market. I feel Inhave a better grasp of the mechanics now and will never ever buy online ads again...

buttersbrian 4y ago

I have built a social advertising marketplace in another life. It is RIPE with fraud that can be quite difficult to slow or truly stop.

CharlesW 4y ago

The actual title: "$60 Million or $60 Billion, the Ad Fraud Question"

cglong 4y ago
The URL should also be updated to the official one: https://www.mql.fm/002-60-million-60-billion-ad-fraud-question-augustine-fou https://www.mql.fm/002-60-million-60-billion-ad-fraud-questi...
- cobertos 4y ago
  This URL also has a play button that does not require DRM (DRM decoding API I'm guessing?). When I click on the original URL I get "No DRM" but with this URL it works fine for me.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

EricE 4y ago

Twitter is just the tip of the iceberg.

ipsum2 4y ago

(Hot) alternate take to ad-fraud - it doesn't matter what percentage of ad views are bots. The only thing that matters is that CLV (customer lifetime value) > cost per conversion.

rebelos 4y ago
Of course it matters: (1) at the macro level, fraud is a tax on the whole ecosystem that ultimately yields higher prices for consumers and (2) at the micro level, relatively better ad efficiency (less fraud) can drive business competitiveness (or even viability, in extreme cases).
- chasebank 4y ago
  In reference to (1) - I'm not so sure this is the case. Competition amongst advertisers will drive up CPM / CPC until the point of margin. The real loser here is the publisher, wasting money on server bandwidth. As an example, if the max CPA for furniture suppliers is $500, if we eliminate ad fraud, furniture suppliers won't get a cheaper CPA, they'll competitively bid up the CPM / CPC until the point of a $500 CPA once again.
  - reillyse 4y ago
    (Ignoring the premise that this is an efficient market - which it very much isn't) So ad fraud is a victimless crime? Where is the money that the fraudsters are earning coming from? Who are they taking that money from?
    - cdbyr 4y ago
      It's an interesting question. If the fraud were evenly spread out, and if all advertisers had the same goal, the equilibrium bid just adjusts for less valuable clicks/interaction/etc (in line with what the earlier commenter mentioned), and the advertisers pay the same amount as in a world without fraud. Fraud isn't evenly spread out though, and advertisers are sometimes unaware, so it probably does hurt them. The other loss is from honest publishers (think newspaper websites, etc.) - they're having to split payments with fraudsters, even though they're providing all the value to the advertiser. Downstream effects mean the publisher is probably producing less, showing more ads, or using other ways to replace ad income.

WirelessGigabit 4y ago

Lol 300 parameters collected to see if an impression is real? So they’re sorting arrays to see I’m a real user? Wtf. Go burn someone else’s CPU, I’ll install an adblocker. Also, an app on iOS, even when malicious, can not read outside of its app boundaries, like passwords etc. It cannot side-load other apps. Only on Android.

from 4y ago
Here's a post from 2020 about the data one anti bot firm collects: https://smitop.com/post/whiteops-data/ https://smitop.com/post/whiteops-data/ They collect even more now.

dereg 4y ago

Forgive me for not RTFA first but I'd like to collect some impressions here. What platforms are people seeing the most suspicious behavior on? I've found that an overwhelming majority of my Reddit engagements are garbage. Most clicks spend less than a couple seconds on my site.

etempleton 4y ago
- Twitter delivers an unnatural amount of traffic with minimal conversions. If it isn’t bots it is a lot of accidental clicks. It is almost certainly bots. - Google Display is always suspect. Really any traditional website display ads are pretty terrible unless you stick to strictly remarketing. - Google and Microsoft Search IF you do not turn off partner search has a lot of ad fraud. If you turn these off and target properly results are very good.