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It was restricted to that for the time being yes. But still a big step in the wrong direction. I don't want my own phone spying on me. It's a bridge too far. Sc

It was restricted to that for the time being yes. But still a big step in the wrong direction. I don't want my own phone spying on me. It's a bridge too far. Scanning on a cloud service is a very big difference. Does it matter in practice? No. But it makes me feel very different about it. That's important too.

smoldesu 4y ago
Same way I feel about it. When the data is on your servers, I fully expect it to be analyzed and checked to ensure it's compliant with the host's standards. That's part of our agreement, as customer and service. When you move that software onto the device I use, now I have to be conscious of everything I interact with. It's a horrible sinking feeling that isn't easily mitigated by platitudes like "we promise not to abuse it!"
- Spooky23 4y ago
  That’s exactly what they proposed to do.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    I guess we have different definitions of "Apple's servers" then.
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      When you sync or upload folder to iCloud, iCloud is Apple’s property. They were scanning content before it landed on Apple’s property to enable S2E crypto. Sounds like you’re taking exception with the explicit parental notification, where a parent with a child enrolled in their iCloud “family” can request to be alerted when their minor child takes an action on the phone owned by the parent. The EFF wrote an awful blog that deliberately confused the already confusing release from Apple. Your privacy is almost certainly weaker as a result, as various entities can use a subpoena or warrant to access your files.
      - falcolas 4y ago
        The problem is that the data wasn't on their servers, it was just flagged to go to Apple's servers. And once you're scanning files with one flag set, nothing technologically prevents the scanning of files without that flag being set. And to quote myself from the Google Stadia brouhaha - "companies lie in PR statements" - so I have no reason to trust Apple's statement that they would never scan other files.
        JimDabell 4y ago
        > And once you're scanning files with one flag set, nothing technologically prevents the scanning of files without that flag being set. You need to read up on how the system worked, because they picked a design that made absolutely no sense if they wanted to do that. They’d have to redesign it to work in a different way if they wanted to do that.
        smoldesu 4y ago
        You can read up on it, if you want. I'm not going to use iCloud if it scans my data before it hits Apple's servers.
        misnome 4y ago
        If you don't trust them to do what they are saying, when they are saying it happens - then why on earth do you trust the device to not do it just by avoiding iCloud?
        Spooky23 4y ago
        You’re getting upset because they chose to tell you that this is happening. The material that they scan for is illegal to possess. You should assume that anyone that accepts cleartext uploads of binary data is scanning for that and other material. At the end of the day, you don’t have the juice to negotiate contractual protections, so corporate self-interest is really your only real protection.
- freedomben 4y ago
  The Apple philosophy though is to think of the phone as an appliance, not a general purpose computer. The model of "ownership" is also a lot more gray with Apple devices. The idea that Apple has more control over the device than you do is the accepted norm. Given that, I think they could easily argue that your data is on their device, so analyzing/checking is expected. They've been slowly iterating more and more to this model for years, likely because I think a lot of people will not go along with it unless the heat turns up slowly.
scarface74 4y ago
The phone was analyzing what you would be sending to the cloud.
- falcolas 4y ago
  True. What stops it from analyzing other files on your phone? A policy block. It's simple to change policies (or be forced to change policies).
  - scarface74 4y ago
    What’s stopping them from doing the same with your unencrypted photos in iCloud? From a technical standpoint, at least you are protected from future policy changes if your files in the cloud are encrypted. Understand, I am playing the devils advocate role more than anything else.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      Nothing. And since it's uploaded, I've agreed that it's OK for them to scan and report on them. The key point I'm trying to make is that where the data is located matters for whether Apple (or Microsoft or Redhat or whichever company) has the ability or right to read and report on that data. > at least you are protected from future policy changes if your files in the cloud are encrypted. If, and only if, that data is never synced back to your phone (which Apples does currently).
  - JimDabell 4y ago
    > What stops it from analyzing other files on your phone? A policy block. The phone would be literally incapable of determining if there were any matches. Please read up on how it was designed to work.

smoldesu 4y ago

Same way I feel about it. When the data is on your servers, I fully expect it to be analyzed and checked to ensure it's compliant with the host's standards. That's part of our agreement, as customer and service. When you move that software onto the device I use, now I have to be conscious of everything I interact with. It's a horrible sinking feeling that isn't easily mitigated by platitudes like "we promise not to abuse it!"

Spooky23 4y ago
That’s exactly what they proposed to do.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  I guess we have different definitions of "Apple's servers" then.
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    When you sync or upload folder to iCloud, iCloud is Apple’s property. They were scanning content before it landed on Apple’s property to enable S2E crypto. Sounds like you’re taking exception with the explicit parental notification, where a parent with a child enrolled in their iCloud “family” can request to be alerted when their minor child takes an action on the phone owned by the parent. The EFF wrote an awful blog that deliberately confused the already confusing release from Apple. Your privacy is almost certainly weaker as a result, as various entities can use a subpoena or warrant to access your files.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      The problem is that the data wasn't on their servers, it was just flagged to go to Apple's servers. And once you're scanning files with one flag set, nothing technologically prevents the scanning of files without that flag being set. And to quote myself from the Google Stadia brouhaha - "companies lie in PR statements" - so I have no reason to trust Apple's statement that they would never scan other files.
      - JimDabell 4y ago
        > And once you're scanning files with one flag set, nothing technologically prevents the scanning of files without that flag being set. You need to read up on how the system worked, because they picked a design that made absolutely no sense if they wanted to do that. They’d have to redesign it to work in a different way if they wanted to do that.
        smoldesu 4y ago
        You can read up on it, if you want. I'm not going to use iCloud if it scans my data before it hits Apple's servers.
        misnome 4y ago
        If you don't trust them to do what they are saying, when they are saying it happens - then why on earth do you trust the device to not do it just by avoiding iCloud?
      - Spooky23 4y ago
        You’re getting upset because they chose to tell you that this is happening. The material that they scan for is illegal to possess. You should assume that anyone that accepts cleartext uploads of binary data is scanning for that and other material. At the end of the day, you don’t have the juice to negotiate contractual protections, so corporate self-interest is really your only real protection.
freedomben 4y ago
The Apple philosophy though is to think of the phone as an appliance, not a general purpose computer. The model of "ownership" is also a lot more gray with Apple devices. The idea that Apple has more control over the device than you do is the accepted norm. Given that, I think they could easily argue that your data is on their device, so analyzing/checking is expected. They've been slowly iterating more and more to this model for years, likely because I think a lot of people will not go along with it unless the heat turns up slowly.

scarface74 4y ago

The phone was analyzing what you would be sending to the cloud.

falcolas 4y ago
True. What stops it from analyzing other files on your phone? A policy block. It's simple to change policies (or be forced to change policies).
- scarface74 4y ago
  What’s stopping them from doing the same with your unencrypted photos in iCloud? From a technical standpoint, at least you are protected from future policy changes if your files in the cloud are encrypted. Understand, I am playing the devils advocate role more than anything else.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    Nothing. And since it's uploaded, I've agreed that it's OK for them to scan and report on them. The key point I'm trying to make is that where the data is located matters for whether Apple (or Microsoft or Redhat or whichever company) has the ability or right to read and report on that data. > at least you are protected from future policy changes if your files in the cloud are encrypted. If, and only if, that data is never synced back to your phone (which Apples does currently).
- JimDabell 4y ago
  > What stops it from analyzing other files on your phone? A policy block. The phone would be literally incapable of determining if there were any matches. Please read up on how it was designed to work.