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Well, I don't disagree that things can be done that way, but I do not think it is the right thing to do, for several reasons. Why learn to design/program just t

by mroman 18y ago

Well, I don't disagree that things can be done that way, but I do not think it is the right thing to do, for several reasons. Why learn to design/program just to pull a total suit move and sell vaporware/vaporproducts? If that is what you want to do, then just fake sell as you said, and then hire a few coders from India who can put whatever together for peanuts and then call that good (I would not be able to sleep at night ever after however). Also, those kinds of maneuvers are best left to suits - who are good at those kinds of things - instead of tech people, who are normally better at building things as opposed to pulling marketing maneuvers.

nostrademons 18y ago
Even if you're a top-notch developer, it still takes an order of magnitude more time to develop an actual product than to put up a product description and a few mockups, and you can still expect 90% of your products to fail. You can easily spend years of development time on products that nobody wants. Why waste all that talent? I had/have the same aversion to selling things that don't exist that you have. But honestly, I think that the next time I do a startup, I'm going to do it that way. I get really sick of speculatively building things that nobody wants. Why not make sure they want it first and then build it? Plus, two of my favorite startups - DropBox and RescueTime - both used this approach (though perhaps with a little less dishonesty - they clearly marked it "demo"), and their products are better for it.
- mroman 18y ago
  I do see your point. I think that the objective is a market study, for which I believe there are some tried and tested methods, although it occurs to me that in this field those may not apply as so many other things, however if that is the case, then I believe "how to find out what the users want without selling vaporware/other questionable tactics" is a worthwhile problem to tackle in and of itself. Selling vaporware is to me similar to using users as unwitting beta testers, I don't believe in it, I think we should be upfront like the examples you cited: if it is a beta let people know, if it is vaporware, let people know, if it is a demo, let people know.
  - trapper 18y ago
    When I say fake sell I mean do the transaction then provide a refund. In my opinion it's the ethical thing to do, not just for you but for your users. Why bother creating a product if it's never going to get traction in the market? You won't be able to afford to support it well, and it won't develop into a great business unless you get significant revenue. This is more unethical for the users, as you'll have to fold or let is stagnate. Why risk it?
    - mroman 18y ago
      Time is a valuable resource. Wasting people's time with a marketing survey under the guise of a product offer is not my idea of ethical. I would fly off the frickin' handle if someone wasted my time for me like that, using a deceptive little trick like that.
- trapper 18y ago
  It will be worth your time. Its kind of like Stephen Key's approach, but more for technology/products. Often times first thing I want to do is jump into code, and it's the last thing you should be doing. Proving the market is critical, and the only way you can prove it exists (for most companies) is to fake sell. When people tell you, I would buy it if it had this feature, they are often lying. Unless they are willing to pony up their credit card, you haven't solved the problem imho.

by mroman 18y ago

nostrademons 18y ago

Even if you're a top-notch developer, it still takes an order of magnitude more time to develop an actual product than to put up a product description and a few mockups, and you can still expect 90% of your products to fail. You can easily spend years of development time on products that nobody wants. Why waste all that talent? I had/have the same aversion to selling things that don't exist that you have. But honestly, I think that the next time I do a startup, I'm going to do it that way. I get really sick of speculatively building things that nobody wants. Why not make sure they want it first and then build it? Plus, two of my favorite startups - DropBox and RescueTime - both used this approach (though perhaps with a little less dishonesty - they clearly marked it "demo"), and their products are better for it.

mroman 18y ago
I do see your point. I think that the objective is a market study, for which I believe there are some tried and tested methods, although it occurs to me that in this field those may not apply as so many other things, however if that is the case, then I believe "how to find out what the users want without selling vaporware/other questionable tactics" is a worthwhile problem to tackle in and of itself. Selling vaporware is to me similar to using users as unwitting beta testers, I don't believe in it, I think we should be upfront like the examples you cited: if it is a beta let people know, if it is vaporware, let people know, if it is a demo, let people know.
- trapper 18y ago
  When I say fake sell I mean do the transaction then provide a refund. In my opinion it's the ethical thing to do, not just for you but for your users. Why bother creating a product if it's never going to get traction in the market? You won't be able to afford to support it well, and it won't develop into a great business unless you get significant revenue. This is more unethical for the users, as you'll have to fold or let is stagnate. Why risk it?
  - mroman 18y ago
    Time is a valuable resource. Wasting people's time with a marketing survey under the guise of a product offer is not my idea of ethical. I would fly off the frickin' handle if someone wasted my time for me like that, using a deceptive little trick like that.
trapper 18y ago
It will be worth your time. Its kind of like Stephen Key's approach, but more for technology/products. Often times first thing I want to do is jump into code, and it's the last thing you should be doing. Proving the market is critical, and the only way you can prove it exists (for most companies) is to fake sell. When people tell you, I would buy it if it had this feature, they are often lying. Unless they are willing to pony up their credit card, you haven't solved the problem imho.