5 ms·

Not sure why System76 is going this route... Everyone is clamouring for a high quality Linux laptop and instead they're using subpar Clevo laptops and creating

Not sure why System76 is going this route... Everyone is clamouring for a high quality Linux laptop and instead they're using subpar Clevo laptops and creating a new distro (with a bad case of NIH) that no one asked for... The hardware they did make seems nice (desktop case and keyboard), dunno why they aren't parleying that into making their own laptops. Like, why buy their current laptops over a ThinkPad (which you know will be supported by Fedora since that's still what's popular at IBM) or an HP/Dell developer laptop, or any of the other "known to work" laptops?

pyuser583 4y ago
None of the Linux diaries are “grandma friendly.” Pop OS comes close.
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  Windows isn't "grandma" friendly based on the amount of times my grandparents called their children (several were in IT for years) and grandchildren for support over the years after breaking things... Literally the only devices they could use without incident were Android and iOS.
- acomjean 4y ago
  I'm not a grandma, but wanted a linux that would just work pretty well with minimal effort. Pop!OS (despite the strange name) comes pretty close. I did have some trouble upgrading one version of the OS, but did get it with some help from support (I installed a 'non typical' library). Despite me messing about while trying to upgrade the OS never got into an unusable state which is impressive. Generally a pretty good experience. I thought initially why bother with another distro, but it seems to be a good experience for me. The Clevo machines are decent. I appreciate the matt screen and easy open/ replaceable parts (my fan succumbed to dog fur....)
- ladyanita22 4y ago
  As close as Ubuntu does.
5d8767c68926 4y ago
>...and creating a new distro (with a bad case of NIH) that no one asked for Eh, after suffering through many Gnome We-Know-Best design decisions, I would be happy for a new entrant in the space that was user focused on creating the best possible experience. An immensely tall order, but I think the demand is there.
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  IMO Gnome IS the best user experience. And KDE is always there if you want more customization. I'm not necessarily against a new distro and new desktop but it does seem like they're abandoning hardware for no apparent reason...
  - lproven 4y ago
    > IMO Gnome IS the best user experience. I laughed out loud at that. In fact TBH I didn't just laugh, I guffawed. Thanks for the entertainment. :-D
    - Mikeb85 4y ago
      So do you prefer the Linux DE that looks and acts like Windows Vista or one of the 10 that looks and acts like Gnome 2?
      - lproven 4y ago
        I described some of my feelings on the matter fairly recently here: https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/17/linux_desktop_feature/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/17/linux_desktop_feature... My personal preference, and what I'm writing on right now, is Unity. I am also very fond of the ROX Desktop. What would I really like to see? Well, barring attempts to just rip up everything and start again for no good reason, I think there would be a lot of mileage in recreating some of the classic UIs of the past that many people have loved. * Classic MacOS was a sublime UI, with a lot of subtle non-obvious features. In its way it was far more polished than Mac OS X, even now. * OS/2 2.x's Workplace Shell was not one of my personal favourites, but it had some excellent design features, and was loved by many. * I have an Amiga but I never was a big fan back in the day, but a good solid modern Amiga Workbench clone would have some mileage, and as I said in the article, there are already FOSS implementations, just not for xNix. * GEM is FOSS now. Why not recreate DR's multitasking GEM/X on Linux, or any of the late-era multitasking GEM desktops from the Atari ST, such as Thing or TeraDesk? One of my favourite UIs is undergoing a pretty good re-implementation effort, in the form of NeXTspace: https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace There are more than half a dozen non-Windows-like desktop metaphors. Is that enough for you or shall I find some more? :-)
hysan 4y ago
The last I heard, System76 has been working on their own laptop hardware. It just takes a lot of work and time, so that’s why nothing has been released (afaik).
panick21_ 4y ago
> Everyone is clamouring for a high quality Linux laptop and instead they're using subpar Clevo laptops Making a laptop from the ground up is hard. They do plan to do their own laptop but that's a very hard thing to do, specially doing it with profit. That is a move that could be company ending. > creating a new distro (with a bad case of NIH) that no one asked for I didn't ask for a lot of things that I like. And PopOS is great.
autoexec 4y ago
> Like, why buy their current laptops over a ThinkPad Because thinkpads are made by Lenovo who has a long history of shipping their devices will malware and backdoors in them, often in exchange for money. They've demonstrated again and again that they are willing to sell out the privacy and security of the people who buy their products if they can line their own pockets doing it. They've even put malware in UEFI so that users who reinstall their OS get reinfected over and over again. The most famous of their abuses was "Superfish" and when the truth about superfish came out they fiercely denied there was any security risk to anyone ("we have thoroughly investigated this technology and do not find any evidence to substantiate security concerns”), then as the bad press continued they eventually admitted it was a problem and said they'd stop shipping devices infected by it, but people were still getting infected devices more than a month later (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/two-weeks-on-superfish-debacle-still-causing-pain-for-some-lenovo-customers/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/two-w...). They published removal instructions so customers could rip the malware out of their system themselves, but the instructions they provided didn't actually fix the problem so all they did do was give people a false sense of security while leaving them vulnerable. Once third parties realized this and the bad press started again, they published revised instructions for removing it, but they were again caught still giving instructions that left many users vulnerable!! (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/20/lenovo-apologises-adware-removal-instructions https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/20/lenovo-ap...) I'm not convinced that this change is a good idea for Pop_OS, but I'll take the problems this could end up causing over handing my money and my security over to Lenovo any day.
mmstick76 4y ago
Every high quality Linux desktop needs a high quality desktop experience. Clevo isn't as bad as people make it out to be. People conveniently forget that Dell, Lenovo, and even Apple have their systems manufactured in the same region with similar factories.

pyuser583 4y ago

None of the Linux diaries are “grandma friendly.” Pop OS comes close.

Mikeb85 4y ago
Windows isn't "grandma" friendly based on the amount of times my grandparents called their children (several were in IT for years) and grandchildren for support over the years after breaking things... Literally the only devices they could use without incident were Android and iOS.
acomjean 4y ago
I'm not a grandma, but wanted a linux that would just work pretty well with minimal effort. Pop!OS (despite the strange name) comes pretty close. I did have some trouble upgrading one version of the OS, but did get it with some help from support (I installed a 'non typical' library). Despite me messing about while trying to upgrade the OS never got into an unusable state which is impressive. Generally a pretty good experience. I thought initially why bother with another distro, but it seems to be a good experience for me. The Clevo machines are decent. I appreciate the matt screen and easy open/ replaceable parts (my fan succumbed to dog fur....)
ladyanita22 4y ago
As close as Ubuntu does.

5d8767c68926 4y ago

>...and creating a new distro (with a bad case of NIH) that no one asked for Eh, after suffering through many Gnome We-Know-Best design decisions, I would be happy for a new entrant in the space that was user focused on creating the best possible experience. An immensely tall order, but I think the demand is there.

Mikeb85 4y ago
IMO Gnome IS the best user experience. And KDE is always there if you want more customization. I'm not necessarily against a new distro and new desktop but it does seem like they're abandoning hardware for no apparent reason...
- lproven 4y ago
  > IMO Gnome IS the best user experience. I laughed out loud at that. In fact TBH I didn't just laugh, I guffawed. Thanks for the entertainment. :-D
  - Mikeb85 4y ago
    So do you prefer the Linux DE that looks and acts like Windows Vista or one of the 10 that looks and acts like Gnome 2?
    - lproven 4y ago
      I described some of my feelings on the matter fairly recently here: https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/17/linux_desktop_feature/ https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/17/linux_desktop_feature... My personal preference, and what I'm writing on right now, is Unity. I am also very fond of the ROX Desktop. What would I really like to see? Well, barring attempts to just rip up everything and start again for no good reason, I think there would be a lot of mileage in recreating some of the classic UIs of the past that many people have loved. * Classic MacOS was a sublime UI, with a lot of subtle non-obvious features. In its way it was far more polished than Mac OS X, even now. * OS/2 2.x's Workplace Shell was not one of my personal favourites, but it had some excellent design features, and was loved by many. * I have an Amiga but I never was a big fan back in the day, but a good solid modern Amiga Workbench clone would have some mileage, and as I said in the article, there are already FOSS implementations, just not for xNix. * GEM is FOSS now. Why not recreate DR's multitasking GEM/X on Linux, or any of the late-era multitasking GEM desktops from the Atari ST, such as Thing or TeraDesk? One of my favourite UIs is undergoing a pretty good re-implementation effort, in the form of NeXTspace: https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace https://github.com/trunkmaster/nextspace There are more than half a dozen non-Windows-like desktop metaphors. Is that enough for you or shall I find some more? :-)

hysan 4y ago

The last I heard, System76 has been working on their own laptop hardware. It just takes a lot of work and time, so that’s why nothing has been released (afaik).

panick21_ 4y ago

> Everyone is clamouring for a high quality Linux laptop and instead they're using subpar Clevo laptops Making a laptop from the ground up is hard. They do plan to do their own laptop but that's a very hard thing to do, specially doing it with profit. That is a move that could be company ending. > creating a new distro (with a bad case of NIH) that no one asked for I didn't ask for a lot of things that I like. And PopOS is great.

autoexec 4y ago

> Like, why buy their current laptops over a ThinkPad Because thinkpads are made by Lenovo who has a long history of shipping their devices will malware and backdoors in them, often in exchange for money. They've demonstrated again and again that they are willing to sell out the privacy and security of the people who buy their products if they can line their own pockets doing it. They've even put malware in UEFI so that users who reinstall their OS get reinfected over and over again. The most famous of their abuses was "Superfish" and when the truth about superfish came out they fiercely denied there was any security risk to anyone ("we have thoroughly investigated this technology and do not find any evidence to substantiate security concerns”), then as the bad press continued they eventually admitted it was a problem and said they'd stop shipping devices infected by it, but people were still getting infected devices more than a month later (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/two-weeks-on-superfish-debacle-still-causing-pain-for-some-lenovo-customers/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/two-w...). They published removal instructions so customers could rip the malware out of their system themselves, but the instructions they provided didn't actually fix the problem so all they did do was give people a false sense of security while leaving them vulnerable. Once third parties realized this and the bad press started again, they published revised instructions for removing it, but they were again caught still giving instructions that left many users vulnerable!! (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/20/lenovo-apologises-adware-removal-instructions https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/feb/20/lenovo-ap...) I'm not convinced that this change is a good idea for Pop_OS, but I'll take the problems this could end up causing over handing my money and my security over to Lenovo any day.

mmstick76 4y ago

Every high quality Linux desktop needs a high quality desktop experience. Clevo isn't as bad as people make it out to be. People conveniently forget that Dell, Lenovo, and even Apple have their systems manufactured in the same region with similar factories.