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At one time, hotels didn't offer free (or any) Wi-Fi, and now it's basically standard even at the bargain basement cheapo motels. As the market demands a featur

At one time, hotels didn't offer free (or any) Wi-Fi, and now it's basically standard even at the bargain basement cheapo motels. As the market demands a feature, it will eventually come. I think time will ultimately solve the EV charging issue in many apartment complexes, multi-family homes, townhouses, and other types of residential areas as that feature gets more demanded. Property management companies are particularly cheap and unintelligent bastards, so the change might be slow, but it will eventually get there if the demand exists. For local driving needs, slow overnight charging should be a workable solution for many. What I don't think is easily workable with mass-adoption of EVs is the following. > Long Distance travel. EVs sort of almost work for a handful of people doing long drives even when it's slower than just filling a gas tank. But when the number of cars on the road exceeds charger throughput, the delays are going to compound. The proverbial family roadtrip is going to suck a lot when you show up at a charging place and there's a line of EVs waiting for the charger and your kids are crying. > Dense cities. It's hard to see how EVs can work in denser cities where they theoretically could do the most good. In places like NYC, many buildings don't offer any parking spaces whatsoever to install chargers at. Instead, people park on the street wherever they can find a semi-legal parking spot. Are cities going to dig up all roads/sidewalks and put EV chargers literally everywhere? That's the the only thing that would make EVs theoretically feasible for an average family in a city.

ghaff 4y ago
>At one time, hotels didn't offer free (or any) Wi-Fi, and now it's basically standard even at the bargain basement cheapo motels. Somewhat off-topic but WiFi tended to be free initially at chains most frequented by individual travelers and families, rather than business travelers--who could just expense a WiFi change. Free WiFi then tended to become a carrot for signing up with a hotel chain's loyalty plan before becoming mostly free in general.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
One other thing to consider is installation costs. The office complex at which I work spent roughly $45,000 in order to install two electric charging stations. There was a lot of debate about justifying the expense at a management level. That expense was only for a mere two stations, and that was also before the supply chain issues and inflation we're seeing now. I can easily see how most apartment complexes would avoid installing charging stations - unless they were forced to install them because of a city ordinance. Maybe it wouldn't be as much of an expense for new construction where the charging stations were planned from the beginning, but that is just speculation on my part.
lostapathy 4y ago
I was really surprised on my vacation last summer how often I saw EV chargers at hotels in rural locations. Especially in central and western Kansas.
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  You'll come across them randomly in places you'd never expect. The problem still exists though. 1) Unless your trip is relatively short, you'll probably need to charge between your home and the hotel. 2) What happens when there's 4 EV parking spots at your hotel and 5 (or more) guests show up at a hotel with EVs? Are people willing to spend their vacations stressing out over getting one of those spots? Personally, I think EVs only work as a toy for the rich and mass-adoption currently involves too many problems for average people that cannot be resolved anytime soon.
  - lostapathy 4y ago
    Right - I totally understand that we have a long ways to go. But at the same time, I think there's probably a lot more chargers running around already than most non-EV owners suspect. Do we have enough EV chargers for everyone today? Of course not. But the deployment does seem to be keeping up with the amount of EVs that exist, and that's good enough for today.
- noirbot 4y ago
  There's definitely some chargers, but the issue ends up being that you need a lot more chargers per mile than you do gas stations in rural areas, assuming you don't have a robust planning/reservation system. You can easily fill a gas tank with 100+ miles worth of gas in just a couple minutes. Recharging an EV locks up a spot at a charger for a fair bit longer, even if you don't charge to full. Driving through remote West Virginia earlier this year, I stopped at a couple 2-pump gas stations that were doing fine business because they were the only station on the highway for 50 miles or such. You probably couldn't get away with just having 2 EV stations.
sigio 4y ago
Here in suburbia in the Netherlands, there's chargers on basically every street in area's without driveways, and in areas where people mostly have a driveway, you can find most will have a private charger. I can't charge in the carpark with my house, but never have an issue finding (many) free charging spots on the streets around my house. And besides the level 2 chargers (11/22kw) here, there's also enough fast-chargers around, though these tend to be expensive.
- jononomo 4y ago
  Who pays for the electricity from these chargers around the street that are free for you to use?
  - sigio 4y ago
    The free in the post above was free in 'available' not 'gratis'. Though there are still a few 'free as in beer' chargers available at shops like LIDL, and some company-office locations. The user of the chargers pays for them.... they are all equipped with RFID cardreaders and compatible with all different charge-card suppliers. Prices have been going up a lot lately with the european energy crisis, with prices going from 20-30ct/kwh to ~40-50ct/kwh now, and fast-chargers going at 70-90ct/kwh.
gruez 4y ago
The difference is that wifi has zero marginal cost and a modest fixed cost (ie. $100 for a decent router), whereas EV charging has a high marginal cost (30 cents) and high fixed cost (few thousand dollars for a charger).
Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
> Long Distance travel Yeah, I've done a couple road trips and I think I've gotten lucky so far. Usually, the charging stations are at only about half capacity, but one time I got to a 12-stall Supercharging station and there was only 1 stall left, and within one minute of me plugging in, two more Teslas arrived and had to park and wait. I've heard that in some areas in California, they've been known to have lines a dozen cars deep, but that was a couple years ago. There's constantly new construction of Supercharging stations, and Tesla just released a CCS adapter, so things are getting better. Still though, it's a race between EV manufacturing and charging installation. What really needs to happen is 250 kW EV chargers at highway rest stops. It sucks when I plug in to charge, and the local businesses are either closed or their bathrooms are closed.
thethethethe 4y ago
> Dense cities. It's hard to see how EVs can work in denser cities where they theoretically could do the most good. No!!! Keep your cars out of my city! Personal EVs are not a solution for cities, they just perpetuate detrimental car centric urban policies. Spend that money on continuous sidewalks, narrower streets and better public transit.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  I'm with you in spirit, but I think this verges on letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Ideally we'd have really narrow streets, so much less parking, and many more amenities for pedestrians. Realistically, replacing a good chunk of the existing gas-fueled cars with electric cars would be a HUGE net win.
  - Gibbon1 4y ago
    When I lived an worked in SF I put something like 6000 miles a year on my car. Probably half of that was in the city. At 6000 miles a year you'd only need to charge your car every two weeks. One problem is the craven MBA's that run auto companies think there is big bucks to be made overcharging people for keyless entry fobs. Which blocks things like being able to hire a service to do things like charge your car for you.
- logicalmonster 4y ago
  > No!!! Keep your cars out of my city! Seems a little entitled to me.
  - thethethethe 4y ago
    Hmm do you think that people who live in a city and pay taxes to maintain its infrastructure don’t deserve to have opinions on how said city spends tax dollars on transportation infrastructure. Seems a little entitled to me

ghaff 4y ago

>At one time, hotels didn't offer free (or any) Wi-Fi, and now it's basically standard even at the bargain basement cheapo motels. Somewhat off-topic but WiFi tended to be free initially at chains most frequented by individual travelers and families, rather than business travelers--who could just expense a WiFi change. Free WiFi then tended to become a carrot for signing up with a hotel chain's loyalty plan before becoming mostly free in general.

BitwiseFool 4y ago

One other thing to consider is installation costs. The office complex at which I work spent roughly $45,000 in order to install two electric charging stations. There was a lot of debate about justifying the expense at a management level. That expense was only for a mere two stations, and that was also before the supply chain issues and inflation we're seeing now. I can easily see how most apartment complexes would avoid installing charging stations - unless they were forced to install them because of a city ordinance. Maybe it wouldn't be as much of an expense for new construction where the charging stations were planned from the beginning, but that is just speculation on my part.

lostapathy 4y ago

I was really surprised on my vacation last summer how often I saw EV chargers at hotels in rural locations. Especially in central and western Kansas.

logicalmonster 4y ago
You'll come across them randomly in places you'd never expect. The problem still exists though. 1) Unless your trip is relatively short, you'll probably need to charge between your home and the hotel. 2) What happens when there's 4 EV parking spots at your hotel and 5 (or more) guests show up at a hotel with EVs? Are people willing to spend their vacations stressing out over getting one of those spots? Personally, I think EVs only work as a toy for the rich and mass-adoption currently involves too many problems for average people that cannot be resolved anytime soon.
- lostapathy 4y ago
  Right - I totally understand that we have a long ways to go. But at the same time, I think there's probably a lot more chargers running around already than most non-EV owners suspect. Do we have enough EV chargers for everyone today? Of course not. But the deployment does seem to be keeping up with the amount of EVs that exist, and that's good enough for today.
noirbot 4y ago
There's definitely some chargers, but the issue ends up being that you need a lot more chargers per mile than you do gas stations in rural areas, assuming you don't have a robust planning/reservation system. You can easily fill a gas tank with 100+ miles worth of gas in just a couple minutes. Recharging an EV locks up a spot at a charger for a fair bit longer, even if you don't charge to full. Driving through remote West Virginia earlier this year, I stopped at a couple 2-pump gas stations that were doing fine business because they were the only station on the highway for 50 miles or such. You probably couldn't get away with just having 2 EV stations.

sigio 4y ago

Here in suburbia in the Netherlands, there's chargers on basically every street in area's without driveways, and in areas where people mostly have a driveway, you can find most will have a private charger. I can't charge in the carpark with my house, but never have an issue finding (many) free charging spots on the streets around my house. And besides the level 2 chargers (11/22kw) here, there's also enough fast-chargers around, though these tend to be expensive.

jononomo 4y ago
Who pays for the electricity from these chargers around the street that are free for you to use?
- sigio 4y ago
  The free in the post above was free in 'available' not 'gratis'. Though there are still a few 'free as in beer' chargers available at shops like LIDL, and some company-office locations. The user of the chargers pays for them.... they are all equipped with RFID cardreaders and compatible with all different charge-card suppliers. Prices have been going up a lot lately with the european energy crisis, with prices going from 20-30ct/kwh to ~40-50ct/kwh now, and fast-chargers going at 70-90ct/kwh.

gruez 4y ago

The difference is that wifi has zero marginal cost and a modest fixed cost (ie. $100 for a decent router), whereas EV charging has a high marginal cost (30 cents) and high fixed cost (few thousand dollars for a charger).

Sohcahtoa82 4y ago

> Long Distance travel Yeah, I've done a couple road trips and I think I've gotten lucky so far. Usually, the charging stations are at only about half capacity, but one time I got to a 12-stall Supercharging station and there was only 1 stall left, and within one minute of me plugging in, two more Teslas arrived and had to park and wait. I've heard that in some areas in California, they've been known to have lines a dozen cars deep, but that was a couple years ago. There's constantly new construction of Supercharging stations, and Tesla just released a CCS adapter, so things are getting better. Still though, it's a race between EV manufacturing and charging installation. What really needs to happen is 250 kW EV chargers at highway rest stops. It sucks when I plug in to charge, and the local businesses are either closed or their bathrooms are closed.

thethethethe 4y ago

> Dense cities. It's hard to see how EVs can work in denser cities where they theoretically could do the most good. No!!! Keep your cars out of my city! Personal EVs are not a solution for cities, they just perpetuate detrimental car centric urban policies. Spend that money on continuous sidewalks, narrower streets and better public transit.

pwinnski 4y ago
I'm with you in spirit, but I think this verges on letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Ideally we'd have really narrow streets, so much less parking, and many more amenities for pedestrians. Realistically, replacing a good chunk of the existing gas-fueled cars with electric cars would be a HUGE net win.
- Gibbon1 4y ago
  When I lived an worked in SF I put something like 6000 miles a year on my car. Probably half of that was in the city. At 6000 miles a year you'd only need to charge your car every two weeks. One problem is the craven MBA's that run auto companies think there is big bucks to be made overcharging people for keyless entry fobs. Which blocks things like being able to hire a service to do things like charge your car for you.
logicalmonster 4y ago
> No!!! Keep your cars out of my city! Seems a little entitled to me.
- thethethethe 4y ago
  Hmm do you think that people who live in a city and pay taxes to maintain its infrastructure don’t deserve to have opinions on how said city spends tax dollars on transportation infrastructure. Seems a little entitled to me