4 ms·

They can do this for the desktop environment programs but the vast majority of GUI programs for linux are going to use Gtk or Qt. Not having to do all the distr

They can do this for the desktop environment programs but the vast majority of GUI programs for linux are going to use Gtk or Qt. Not having to do all the distro-side patches required to fix the GNOME dev's Gtk3 breakage (not sure if Qt is this way or not) will leave their distro much rougher than other distros when running non-Pop_OS programs. Also, the fact that Iced Rust also targets the 'web' suggests to me it will not be a fully capable toolkit (as web cannot do what native can). Seems like they're going to be using this by themselves... and that's fine. Pop_OS has gone off on their own successfully before.

givemeethekeys 4y ago
I remember running GTK apps on KDE desktops just fine. Why wouldn't I be able to run GTK apps on their ICE powered desktop? Re: web - isn't the purpose of WASM to make possible in web environments that which is possible on desktop environments?
- nvrspyx 4y ago
  Maybe they mean aesthetically? KDE basically makes a clone of their Breeze theme for GTK to try to make all apps have a consistent look on KDE. I believe the reverse is true with an Adwaita theme for KDE/Qt apps, but don't quote me on that.
  - spookie 4y ago
    You can find versions for both "toolkits" even in custom themes. For the end user it's mostly a non issue. Even with different backends it looks more consistent than Windows.
    - nvrspyx 4y ago
      That's true, but the Iced theme that they're showing in the images looks like it would be very difficult to recreate in GTK and Qt. That's not mentioning the increased amount of time and effort in maintaining those themes. Perhaps this is an area that the community will contribute to though.
      - mmstick76 4y ago
        Color palette adjustments alone would bring it pretty close. We can automatically generate them on the fly.
  - linmob 4y ago
    The same is true with an Adwaita theme for KDE/Qt Apps. I used to do this on both, Plasma and GNOME. These days I style my Qt/KDE apps all Breeze on GNOME and vice versa when I am on KDE, because unfortunately icon sets just don’t match up and I've run into 'invisible buttons' issues way to often. As long as both are in dark/light mode I find this way less annoying than having to hope for a good enough tooltip on mouse over (or just tap and see on mobile).
- 1langisbad 4y ago
  > Why wouldn't I be able to run GTK apps on their ICE powered desktop? Of course you would be able to, just don't expect the theming to match, the menus to have similar structures, dialogs having buttons in predictable places, etc. > isn't the purpose of WASM to make possible in web environments that which is possible on desktop environments? I don't think so. I think this is the purpose of all the new Web APIs more than WASM. The sandboxing and the inability to call out to the system is crippling for GUIs in WebAssembly. It works well if you control the drawing and are able to output raw data to a <canvas>, but it's a hassle. WASM works the best for things like opencv or dlib, but I think the GUI for the apps compiled to WASM will need to be written in JS for quite some time, if not forever.
  - dmd 4y ago
    > Of course you would be able to, just don't expect the theming to match, the menus to have similar structures, dialogs having buttons in predictable places, etc. I think nearly all Linux users - and most Mac/Windows users who don't remember how things were back in the XP or classic Mac era - don't realize these are even goals or something that has ever existed.
    - 5d8767c68926 4y ago
      It does feel like an odd complaint. I have had mismatched desktop elements for a very long time now. What's another oddball entry on the list?
    - tssva 4y ago
      I remember exactly how things were with Windows going back to Windows 3.0. This never existed on Windows.
  - mmstick76 4y ago
    Rest assured that anyone with experience with a GTK3/4 application is going to have an easy time with the COSMIC designs. A lot of aspects will be similar. Maybe even a bit more standardized in some ways.
pkulak 4y ago
Plenty of folks use WMs like Sway that don't use GTK or QT and everything is fine. You just pick a theme and it gets passed to GTK and QT apps. I guess if you show decorations, they differ between apps, but it's really not terrible. I think we're all used to that by now, on every OS.
- superkuh 4y ago
  I'm not talking problems with DE toolkit applications. I'm saying that without the additional incentive to round down the sharp edges in Gtk3 with a custom distro patch set to get their DE working right (they won't have to because it's not gtk) they probably won't maintain the aformentioned required distro patches to gtk to fix all the frozen in bugs/feature removals. And so running gtk applications (most linux GUI applications) on these distros is more likely to have these sharp edges.
  - linmob 4y ago
    Pop!_OS is still based on Ubuntu, so I doubt that they are going to ship unpatched upstream GTK, it's more likely going to be patched by Canonical.
    - superkuh 4y ago
      Unfortunately Canonical does not fix gtk3 either. Ubuntu after 14.04 is broken and you cannot paste file paths into Gtk3 program's File-Open dialogs without an elaborate key sequence to bring up the pathbar first. But it is fixed in gtk4, which Gnome uses, so Canonical doesn't care.
      - mmstick76 4y ago
        We will have our own file dialogs as we complete the Iced GUI library.

givemeethekeys 4y ago

I remember running GTK apps on KDE desktops just fine. Why wouldn't I be able to run GTK apps on their ICE powered desktop? Re: web - isn't the purpose of WASM to make possible in web environments that which is possible on desktop environments?

nvrspyx 4y ago
Maybe they mean aesthetically? KDE basically makes a clone of their Breeze theme for GTK to try to make all apps have a consistent look on KDE. I believe the reverse is true with an Adwaita theme for KDE/Qt apps, but don't quote me on that.
- spookie 4y ago
  You can find versions for both "toolkits" even in custom themes. For the end user it's mostly a non issue. Even with different backends it looks more consistent than Windows.
  - nvrspyx 4y ago
    That's true, but the Iced theme that they're showing in the images looks like it would be very difficult to recreate in GTK and Qt. That's not mentioning the increased amount of time and effort in maintaining those themes. Perhaps this is an area that the community will contribute to though.
    - mmstick76 4y ago
      Color palette adjustments alone would bring it pretty close. We can automatically generate them on the fly.
- linmob 4y ago
  The same is true with an Adwaita theme for KDE/Qt Apps. I used to do this on both, Plasma and GNOME. These days I style my Qt/KDE apps all Breeze on GNOME and vice versa when I am on KDE, because unfortunately icon sets just don’t match up and I've run into 'invisible buttons' issues way to often. As long as both are in dark/light mode I find this way less annoying than having to hope for a good enough tooltip on mouse over (or just tap and see on mobile).
1langisbad 4y ago
> Why wouldn't I be able to run GTK apps on their ICE powered desktop? Of course you would be able to, just don't expect the theming to match, the menus to have similar structures, dialogs having buttons in predictable places, etc. > isn't the purpose of WASM to make possible in web environments that which is possible on desktop environments? I don't think so. I think this is the purpose of all the new Web APIs more than WASM. The sandboxing and the inability to call out to the system is crippling for GUIs in WebAssembly. It works well if you control the drawing and are able to output raw data to a <canvas>, but it's a hassle. WASM works the best for things like opencv or dlib, but I think the GUI for the apps compiled to WASM will need to be written in JS for quite some time, if not forever.
- dmd 4y ago
  > Of course you would be able to, just don't expect the theming to match, the menus to have similar structures, dialogs having buttons in predictable places, etc. I think nearly all Linux users - and most Mac/Windows users who don't remember how things were back in the XP or classic Mac era - don't realize these are even goals or something that has ever existed.
  - 5d8767c68926 4y ago
    It does feel like an odd complaint. I have had mismatched desktop elements for a very long time now. What's another oddball entry on the list?
  - tssva 4y ago
    I remember exactly how things were with Windows going back to Windows 3.0. This never existed on Windows.
- mmstick76 4y ago
  Rest assured that anyone with experience with a GTK3/4 application is going to have an easy time with the COSMIC designs. A lot of aspects will be similar. Maybe even a bit more standardized in some ways.

pkulak 4y ago

Plenty of folks use WMs like Sway that don't use GTK or QT and everything is fine. You just pick a theme and it gets passed to GTK and QT apps. I guess if you show decorations, they differ between apps, but it's really not terrible. I think we're all used to that by now, on every OS.

superkuh 4y ago
I'm not talking problems with DE toolkit applications. I'm saying that without the additional incentive to round down the sharp edges in Gtk3 with a custom distro patch set to get their DE working right (they won't have to because it's not gtk) they probably won't maintain the aformentioned required distro patches to gtk to fix all the frozen in bugs/feature removals. And so running gtk applications (most linux GUI applications) on these distros is more likely to have these sharp edges.
- linmob 4y ago
  Pop!_OS is still based on Ubuntu, so I doubt that they are going to ship unpatched upstream GTK, it's more likely going to be patched by Canonical.
  - superkuh 4y ago
    Unfortunately Canonical does not fix gtk3 either. Ubuntu after 14.04 is broken and you cannot paste file paths into Gtk3 program's File-Open dialogs without an elaborate key sequence to bring up the pathbar first. But it is fixed in gtk4, which Gnome uses, so Canonical doesn't care.
    - mmstick76 4y ago
      We will have our own file dialogs as we complete the Iced GUI library.