5 ms·

I don't understand the love ( obsession ? ) in the West for "space" -- particularly in people living alone, and with the pervasive lack of housing, plus insane

I don't understand the love ( obsession ? ) in the West for "space" -- particularly in people living alone, and with the pervasive lack of housing, plus insane rent / mortgage / utilities costs. I wouldn't change our tiny room ( and silent, polite neighbours ) in Tokyo for any villa in Europe or single family house in the US either.

jaclaz 4y ago
It is not like it is mandated by Law (within limits[1]), you can have a tiny house/apartment in the US or EU as well. Neighbours may be another thing, but it is independent from size of the house/apartment [1] countries may well put a minimum size for a living unit, as an example in Italy you cannot legally call something a "house" if it is smaller than 28 sqm (for 1 person) and 38 sqm (for two people), but that doesn't stop people from living in smaller sized units.
- ananiochita 4y ago
  > Neighbours may be another thing, but it is independent from size of the house/apartment ... I don't think it is. The millions of Japanese living in 300 square feet spaces next to each other wall-to-wall would not be a possible situation without a level of civility that simply does not exist in the West, where even people on farms next to each other seem to clash for one reason or another, never mind in apartment buildings.
  - jaclaz 4y ago
    I meant that in Tokio you can have a large apartment and silent, polite neighbours as well, i.e. the level of civilty - as you call it - is not directly connected to the size of the apartment.
    - ananiochita 4y ago
      I get your point. ( Didn't downvote you by the way. ) Not sure where those small places you mention are. I always have trouble to find a small decent place for one in Europe ( other than an overpriced hotel room ) for temporary stays, it is extraordinarily difficult and expensive, if possible at all -- and not just for visitors, but also residents. Ask for anything like the ubiquitous Japanese 1Ks or 1Rs and they look at you like you're completely insane.
      - jaclaz 4y ago
        That's yet another thing, generic scarcety of (tiny, small, medium) apartments for rent in many EU cities, particularly in touristic or university destinations, let alone at a decent price.
strikelaserclaw 4y ago
there is a total lack of community in most western cities i've lived in so it makes sense to make your home your kingdom since you spend most of your personal time in it.
- fortran77 4y ago
  The article claims that 1/3 of Japanese have never had a houseguest so I don’t know what you mean by “lack of community”
  - ananiochita 4y ago
    Other than culture, which also plays a large part in this, many people in Japan live alone. And, as opposed to the West, that means living in a space optimized for one person. It is neither convenient nor pleasant to accommodate guest(s) either for the person living there or for the visitor. You want a party, AND privacy ? Rent a large private karaoke room with service that will bring you anything you want and nothing to clean yourself afterwards, make as much noise with as many people as you want. Quiet space to chill, study, or work in company ? A myriad fantastic cafes. Family stuff ? Famires to the rescue. Etc. The vast majority of these places are clean, safe, cheap, and within walking distance of wherever one lives -- if not, nothing beats Japanese trains and other means of public transportation. As for community, if the above isn't enough, just compare the streets of Japanese cities with those of Western cities and tell me in which ones you will find small children going about safely ( or adults for that matter ), and which ones are covered with litter, cigarette butts, people yelling in public, and idle cars or disturbing filthy traffic everywhere. Which ones suggest to you "don't disturb your neighbours, be agreeable, enjoy being here" and which ones scream "no one gives a f*ck about you, get out of the way" ... We could go on, and compare individualistic societies and collective thinking ones, but that's a long conversation.
the_only_law 4y ago
I can understand some level of space. I have a lot of equipment from my hobbies and basically nowhere to put it. An extra room would be nice. At some point it doesn’t make sense. I knew two people, a couple, that owned a three story lake home with I couldn’t even count how many rooms. This was great once every few years when they had a big gathering, but would just feel eerily empty otherwise.
filoleg 4y ago
Same, but it is all relative. I absolutely don't understand people with no kids or dogs buying massive houses with backyards and all, feels like just a lot of extra space you gotta clean up and maintain. Again, exceptions apply, some people set up gardens, work on their project car, set up a woodworking shop in the garage, etc. All of those make sense to me, but otherwise, I don't see the appeal. However, 95sqft is way too little. Ideally, I would prefer to simply live in a sub-1000sqft apt with a balcony and a good layout. If the layout is good, i would be down to go for even less space. Saying that because my current layout is rather stupid, and the apt building management knows it (given that the apt next wall to me has a bit over 100sqft less space, but costs more, due to the layout actually making more sense).
- ananiochita 4y ago
  95 is a bit extreme, agreed. I've been perfectly comfortable in 400 feet places in Japan, layout permitting as you say, some buildings have really funny and strange structures. Some of the samples in the link from the company the NYT mentions [1] are rather cute though, I have to say. [1] https://spilytus.co.jp/ https://spilytus.co.jp/

jaclaz 4y ago

It is not like it is mandated by Law (within limits[1]), you can have a tiny house/apartment in the US or EU as well. Neighbours may be another thing, but it is independent from size of the house/apartment [1] countries may well put a minimum size for a living unit, as an example in Italy you cannot legally call something a "house" if it is smaller than 28 sqm (for 1 person) and 38 sqm (for two people), but that doesn't stop people from living in smaller sized units.

ananiochita 4y ago
> Neighbours may be another thing, but it is independent from size of the house/apartment ... I don't think it is. The millions of Japanese living in 300 square feet spaces next to each other wall-to-wall would not be a possible situation without a level of civility that simply does not exist in the West, where even people on farms next to each other seem to clash for one reason or another, never mind in apartment buildings.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  I meant that in Tokio you can have a large apartment and silent, polite neighbours as well, i.e. the level of civilty - as you call it - is not directly connected to the size of the apartment.
  - ananiochita 4y ago
    I get your point. ( Didn't downvote you by the way. ) Not sure where those small places you mention are. I always have trouble to find a small decent place for one in Europe ( other than an overpriced hotel room ) for temporary stays, it is extraordinarily difficult and expensive, if possible at all -- and not just for visitors, but also residents. Ask for anything like the ubiquitous Japanese 1Ks or 1Rs and they look at you like you're completely insane.
    - jaclaz 4y ago
      That's yet another thing, generic scarcety of (tiny, small, medium) apartments for rent in many EU cities, particularly in touristic or university destinations, let alone at a decent price.

strikelaserclaw 4y ago

there is a total lack of community in most western cities i've lived in so it makes sense to make your home your kingdom since you spend most of your personal time in it.

fortran77 4y ago
The article claims that 1/3 of Japanese have never had a houseguest so I don’t know what you mean by “lack of community”
- ananiochita 4y ago
  Other than culture, which also plays a large part in this, many people in Japan live alone. And, as opposed to the West, that means living in a space optimized for one person. It is neither convenient nor pleasant to accommodate guest(s) either for the person living there or for the visitor. You want a party, AND privacy ? Rent a large private karaoke room with service that will bring you anything you want and nothing to clean yourself afterwards, make as much noise with as many people as you want. Quiet space to chill, study, or work in company ? A myriad fantastic cafes. Family stuff ? Famires to the rescue. Etc. The vast majority of these places are clean, safe, cheap, and within walking distance of wherever one lives -- if not, nothing beats Japanese trains and other means of public transportation. As for community, if the above isn't enough, just compare the streets of Japanese cities with those of Western cities and tell me in which ones you will find small children going about safely ( or adults for that matter ), and which ones are covered with litter, cigarette butts, people yelling in public, and idle cars or disturbing filthy traffic everywhere. Which ones suggest to you "don't disturb your neighbours, be agreeable, enjoy being here" and which ones scream "no one gives a f*ck about you, get out of the way" ... We could go on, and compare individualistic societies and collective thinking ones, but that's a long conversation.

the_only_law 4y ago

I can understand some level of space. I have a lot of equipment from my hobbies and basically nowhere to put it. An extra room would be nice. At some point it doesn’t make sense. I knew two people, a couple, that owned a three story lake home with I couldn’t even count how many rooms. This was great once every few years when they had a big gathering, but would just feel eerily empty otherwise.

filoleg 4y ago

Same, but it is all relative. I absolutely don't understand people with no kids or dogs buying massive houses with backyards and all, feels like just a lot of extra space you gotta clean up and maintain. Again, exceptions apply, some people set up gardens, work on their project car, set up a woodworking shop in the garage, etc. All of those make sense to me, but otherwise, I don't see the appeal. However, 95sqft is way too little. Ideally, I would prefer to simply live in a sub-1000sqft apt with a balcony and a good layout. If the layout is good, i would be down to go for even less space. Saying that because my current layout is rather stupid, and the apt building management knows it (given that the apt next wall to me has a bit over 100sqft less space, but costs more, due to the layout actually making more sense).

ananiochita 4y ago
95 is a bit extreme, agreed. I've been perfectly comfortable in 400 feet places in Japan, layout permitting as you say, some buildings have really funny and strange structures. Some of the samples in the link from the company the NYT mentions [1] are rather cute though, I have to say. [1] https://spilytus.co.jp/ https://spilytus.co.jp/