4 ms·

Bitcoin's proof-of-work is a fascinating thought experiment, an interesting proof of concept, and an absolutely terrifying real-world energy sink in a world tha

by pavlov 4y ago

Bitcoin's proof-of-work is a fascinating thought experiment, an interesting proof of concept, and an absolutely terrifying real-world energy sink in a world that's already starved for clean energy and heading for an unavoidable climate meltdown. We've heard all the whataboutist arguments about Christmas lights and bankers' data centers and whatever. Yes, we should save energy there too! But when there's a novel form of energy waste that's ballooned past a mid-size European country's annual consumption within a decade and provides a service that's largely philosophical ("digital scarcity"), then that seems like something we should address immediately.

junofan 4y ago
Seems like short term thinking. Our descendants are just not gonna be good stewards of an energy asceticism regime.
once_inc 4y ago
Please note that Bitcoin's energy consumption is nothing compared to other industries, and that it is rapidly becoming a net carbon negative industry because of the use of miners to prevent methane emissions.
- jollybean 4y ago
  Bitcoin is not an 'industry' so it's not comparable on those terms, moreover, it provides nothing of value to anyone.
- acdha 4y ago
  Those other industries do useful things. If the world stopped having aluminum or steel, the effects would be catastrophic. If Bitcoin stopped tomorrow, nobody other than speculators would notice it except as a funny story in the news.
  - once_inc 4y ago
    It would destroy a nascent financial system that would empower billions of people in the world. You are basically saying: a baby dying in their cradle wouldn't generate as much impact as a harvard professor dying. Well, it wouldn't, but if that child would have been the next Newton or Einstein, the world is still significantly poorer for it.
    - acdha 4y ago
      I’m familiar with the sales literature, yes. Going on a decade and a half of those claims falling flat, however, I think it’s far more likely that Bitcoin’s future is El Salvador rather than the golden vision of the advertisements.
      - once_inc 4y ago
        What makes you say those claims are falling flat? Nigerians are heavily using Bitcoin and the LN for financial privileges. Check some of Alex Gladstein's (CSO at Human Rights Foundation) articles.
- Nursie 4y ago
  Oh bullshit. The methane emission thing is still largely theoretical. In the real world, Bitcoin is mined using particularly filthy coal in Kazakhstan, as well as natural gas in the USA - https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/26/investing/bitcoin-mining-renewable-energy/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/26/investing/bitcoin-mining-... There's always an excuse or a "well just around the corner it'll be better", but the fact is it's actually terrible and this is pure distraction. Yes, I know, if you can mine bitcoin and release CO2 instead of releasing methane directly, that's a small win in climate terms, roughly equivalent to just flaring the gas, but with a profit motive. Let me know when that accounts for even a handful of percentage points of the total hashrate, let alone the majority.
  - once_inc 4y ago
    Methane is 10x as powerful as a greenhouse gas, and reducing methane is far more relevant to combatting climate change than fighting CO2 emissions. The research you referenced is sourced eventually to Alex de Vries, a person that has for years built his entire career image after "exposing Bitcoin's energy use". That fact that he works for the Dutch central bank should ring an alarm bell honestly. Note that practically all research critical of Bitcoin's emissions are directly sourced to Alex de Vries's digiconomist website.
    - Nursie 4y ago
      Ad hominem attacks then, rather than any actual rebuttal. What I'm hearing is "Alex De Vries is mean about Bitcoin so you shouldn't listen to him". Someone working for a central bank to me is someone who might know a thing or two about finance, rather than an enemy, but hey... The thing is, I don't need to listen to him - there's tons of info out there about Bitcoin's presence in Kazakhstan from all sorts of sources. For instance here in New Scientist: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2284222-coal-powered-bitcoin-mining-soars-in-kazakhstan-following-chinese-ban/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2284222-coal-powered-bi... Reuters reporting on energy problems in Kazakhstan due to mining there - https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/crypto-boom-strains-kazakhstans-coal-powered-energy-grid-2021-11-10/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/crypto-boom-strains-... About 20% of BTC hashrate seems to be there, and the energy there is 90% coal and gas. Then we have things like fossil fuel plants being brought out of retirement for Bitcoin mining in the US - https://www.voanews.com/a/bitcoin-mining-power-plant/6273552.html https://www.voanews.com/a/bitcoin-mining-power-plant/6273552... Yes, I know that stopping methane escapes is definitely a good thing. There's no indication that this is happening on any scale, and the stories all talk about "enormous potential", and possibilities and projections. I hope it does become carbon neutral, that would be one less problem with it, but it's not there yet and handwaving away problems because you have a potential solution is disingenuous.
- paulgb 4y ago
  > rapidly becoming a net carbon negative industry In spite of the mining industry’s half-hearted attempts at greenwashing what they do, the largest mining operations are coal and natural gas.
hni 4y ago
A significant (and arguably growing) part of the world population would likely disagree with your characterisation of Bitcoin's service as 'largely philosphical' (check your financial privilege!): https://twitter.com/gladstein/status/1502067170242613248 https://twitter.com/gladstein/status/1502067170242613248
- pavlov 4y ago
  Another Bitcoin talking point that’s never backed by any actual numbers. The El Salvador experiment suggests that Bitcoin’s appeal in the third world is very limited, and the use cases are better addressed by more efficient payment technologies. (Btw I’m not going to click on your random Twitter or YouTube link. Why do crypto people assume that a reasonable debate involves dumping social media links without explanation.)

by pavlov 4y ago

junofan 4y ago

Seems like short term thinking. Our descendants are just not gonna be good stewards of an energy asceticism regime.

once_inc 4y ago

Please note that Bitcoin's energy consumption is nothing compared to other industries, and that it is rapidly becoming a net carbon negative industry because of the use of miners to prevent methane emissions.

jollybean 4y ago
Bitcoin is not an 'industry' so it's not comparable on those terms, moreover, it provides nothing of value to anyone.
acdha 4y ago
Those other industries do useful things. If the world stopped having aluminum or steel, the effects would be catastrophic. If Bitcoin stopped tomorrow, nobody other than speculators would notice it except as a funny story in the news.
- once_inc 4y ago
  It would destroy a nascent financial system that would empower billions of people in the world. You are basically saying: a baby dying in their cradle wouldn't generate as much impact as a harvard professor dying. Well, it wouldn't, but if that child would have been the next Newton or Einstein, the world is still significantly poorer for it.
  - acdha 4y ago
    I’m familiar with the sales literature, yes. Going on a decade and a half of those claims falling flat, however, I think it’s far more likely that Bitcoin’s future is El Salvador rather than the golden vision of the advertisements.
    - once_inc 4y ago
      What makes you say those claims are falling flat? Nigerians are heavily using Bitcoin and the LN for financial privileges. Check some of Alex Gladstein's (CSO at Human Rights Foundation) articles.
Nursie 4y ago
Oh bullshit. The methane emission thing is still largely theoretical. In the real world, Bitcoin is mined using particularly filthy coal in Kazakhstan, as well as natural gas in the USA - https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/26/investing/bitcoin-mining-renewable-energy/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/26/investing/bitcoin-mining-... There's always an excuse or a "well just around the corner it'll be better", but the fact is it's actually terrible and this is pure distraction. Yes, I know, if you can mine bitcoin and release CO2 instead of releasing methane directly, that's a small win in climate terms, roughly equivalent to just flaring the gas, but with a profit motive. Let me know when that accounts for even a handful of percentage points of the total hashrate, let alone the majority.
- once_inc 4y ago
  Methane is 10x as powerful as a greenhouse gas, and reducing methane is far more relevant to combatting climate change than fighting CO2 emissions. The research you referenced is sourced eventually to Alex de Vries, a person that has for years built his entire career image after "exposing Bitcoin's energy use". That fact that he works for the Dutch central bank should ring an alarm bell honestly. Note that practically all research critical of Bitcoin's emissions are directly sourced to Alex de Vries's digiconomist website.
  - Nursie 4y ago
    Ad hominem attacks then, rather than any actual rebuttal. What I'm hearing is "Alex De Vries is mean about Bitcoin so you shouldn't listen to him". Someone working for a central bank to me is someone who might know a thing or two about finance, rather than an enemy, but hey... The thing is, I don't need to listen to him - there's tons of info out there about Bitcoin's presence in Kazakhstan from all sorts of sources. For instance here in New Scientist: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2284222-coal-powered-bitcoin-mining-soars-in-kazakhstan-following-chinese-ban/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2284222-coal-powered-bi... Reuters reporting on energy problems in Kazakhstan due to mining there - https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/crypto-boom-strains-kazakhstans-coal-powered-energy-grid-2021-11-10/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/crypto-boom-strains-... About 20% of BTC hashrate seems to be there, and the energy there is 90% coal and gas. Then we have things like fossil fuel plants being brought out of retirement for Bitcoin mining in the US - https://www.voanews.com/a/bitcoin-mining-power-plant/6273552.html https://www.voanews.com/a/bitcoin-mining-power-plant/6273552... Yes, I know that stopping methane escapes is definitely a good thing. There's no indication that this is happening on any scale, and the stories all talk about "enormous potential", and possibilities and projections. I hope it does become carbon neutral, that would be one less problem with it, but it's not there yet and handwaving away problems because you have a potential solution is disingenuous.
paulgb 4y ago
> rapidly becoming a net carbon negative industry In spite of the mining industry’s half-hearted attempts at greenwashing what they do, the largest mining operations are coal and natural gas.

hni 4y ago

A significant (and arguably growing) part of the world population would likely disagree with your characterisation of Bitcoin's service as 'largely philosphical' (check your financial privilege!): https://twitter.com/gladstein/status/1502067170242613248 https://twitter.com/gladstein/status/1502067170242613248

pavlov 4y ago
Another Bitcoin talking point that’s never backed by any actual numbers. The El Salvador experiment suggests that Bitcoin’s appeal in the third world is very limited, and the use cases are better addressed by more efficient payment technologies. (Btw I’m not going to click on your random Twitter or YouTube link. Why do crypto people assume that a reasonable debate involves dumping social media links without explanation.)