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AUTHOR: Socrates (469–399 B.C.) QUOTATION: The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and l

AUTHOR: Socrates (469–399 B.C.) QUOTATION: The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. Person who has been teaching for forty years bemoans the youth these days...more at 11.

ianbutler 4y ago
This is a quantified reduction in ability, not a subjective gripe and one that is very commonly observed. A lot of programs are admitting under prepared students.
- ysavir 4y ago
  > This is a quantified reduction in ability How effectively is it controlling for factors? > A lot of programs are admitting under prepared students. Sure. But there remains the question of _what_ should the students be prepared for, and are educational institutions providing that substance? Meaning, are students under prepared because they don't know how to succeed in a college environment, or are students under prepared because colleges don't know how to teach in a modern environment?
  - teemab 4y ago
    They’re underprepared because they weren’t adequately prepared beforehand.
- anoonmoose 4y ago
  The only thing I noticed quantified in this paper was the number of students failing. Could just as easily be explained by a decline on the teacher's end.
  - ticviking 4y ago
    Considering that the same system is producing both students and teachers it seems very likely that the quality of both could be declining in a feedback loop. Less prepared instructors produce lower quality students who are themselves poor instructors.
pfdietz 4y ago
AUTHOR: Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) QUOTATION: 97% of quotes on the Internet are complete fabrications.
- yeezyseezy 4y ago
  Funny enough, the source[0] that uses this formatting also points out the quote is a fabrication. [0]: https://www.bartleby.com/73/195.html https://www.bartleby.com/73/195.html
pimbrah 4y ago
Socrates didn't leave any writings
- anoonmoose 4y ago
  Yeah, but Plato, who knew him, did I mean this quote isn't in Plato's writings either but still
mwcampbell 4y ago
I don't think that's what the professor is doing. From the article: > specifically. Please note, I am not trying to “blame” students for their failing performance; rather, I am trying to understand it. Remedying the situation will require action by both students and faculty.
- tchaffee 4y ago
  The author then goes on to blame students in 4 out 5 of the following points. To his credit he does suggest several changes he and faculty could make by the end of the article. But I think he's missing the most relevent point: with the vast number of online educational resources on the net, many students have been exposed to what great teaching looks like. Decades ago when this guy started teaching he did not have to survive that competition and comparison. He should stop entirely worrying about what students need to do and up his own game to at least match what anyone can find for free on video streaming platforms and elsewhere. He is the paid professional here. When he has eliminated his own shortcomings then he can perhaps start to correctly identify things that aren't a result of those shortcomings.
  - shafoshaf 4y ago
    They may have been exposed to great teaching, but do they recognize it? Asking people how they feel about the learning without an objective criteria to measure their performance could be a recipe for a local maximum.
    - tchaffee 4y ago
      > but do they recognize it? They don't need to for it to affect attendance. You stick around when you find something captivating and skip that which you find dull. And something that was captivating twenty years ago compared to the other content that was available at that time might be dull compared to today's content. Teachers can't expect styles and material from decades ago to just work like it used to.
- shkkmo 4y ago
  Yet the professor rejects out of hand that any changes need to happen with the course material, instead deciding the he needs to do a better job of "explaining how to succeed in the class" and "somehow making making office hours more welcoming.' Very little to no time is spent looking at ways to do either of those. This the article really is just mostly the professor complaining about his students while doing no introspection on his own possible failures.
mihaic 4y ago
I see this quote or mentions along this line popping up every single time someone says there is a regression in a newer generation. But some generations actually are worse than their predecessors (at least in certain aspects). There are universal complaints about teenagers: loud, rude, etc, and there are specifics I see for youth today: they are emotionally more fragile and underdeveloped, are more passive in general, understand complex situations less, and have a harder time in accepting reality. I'm not blaming anyone (if I were it would be the boomers that ruined the youth today), but blanked dismissal of issues because "this is how things have always been" doesn't help. For most of human history we've been at war and at the brink of starvation, and all the while there was a concentrated effort to handle those issues.
- mstipetic 4y ago
  What is this objective reality people struggle to accept?
  - mellavora 4y ago
    If you don't pay your bills, people come and take your stuff. Then other people come and make you leave your residence. Then you get to live in your car. Unless someone has come and taken that.
    - logicprog 4y ago
      In what way are we "struggling to accept" this reality? If you mean that we want to change this, that's an entirely different discussion and not necessarily an automatic point against us.
    - tchaffee 4y ago
      > If you don't pay your bills, people come and take your stuff. What gave you the idea that younger generations aren't aware of this? About 17 out of 10,000 people in the US are homeless. The vast majority of people in the US are not experiencing what you are describing.
    - 4y ago
UweSchmidt 4y ago
I see no reason to outright dismiss Sokrates' analysis, nor the professor's, who is giving quantifyable data (deteriorating grades, grade inflation) and mentioning plausible issues (deteriorationg attention spans). The world is constantly changing and influencing each upcoming generation, for the better or worse, and Sokrates considered this issue important enough to discuss.
yobbo 4y ago
To be fair, the ancient Greece did decline and "fall". Probably, this what the Romans said towards the end of their run as well.
tlear 4y ago
This is why going back to Math is always the way. Out of 100 students in Econ 101. How many can read a problem and setup then solve a simple linear system? Forget it how many can solve a linear system Old professor I had in university would do a Math quiz in the first class, with disclaimer on the paper: If you find this hard save your money and drop out. Just some basic Algebra. Tenure and teaching for 30 years, he genuinely did not give a fuck. Of course lots of people would skip first class due to their O week.. Same epic prof would give exactly same tests year to year with 2-3 number changed around.. then fail everyone who provided answers from a wrong year. You would think people would learn or word would get passed down.. nope.

ianbutler 4y ago

This is a quantified reduction in ability, not a subjective gripe and one that is very commonly observed. A lot of programs are admitting under prepared students.

ysavir 4y ago
> This is a quantified reduction in ability How effectively is it controlling for factors? > A lot of programs are admitting under prepared students. Sure. But there remains the question of _what_ should the students be prepared for, and are educational institutions providing that substance? Meaning, are students under prepared because they don't know how to succeed in a college environment, or are students under prepared because colleges don't know how to teach in a modern environment?
- teemab 4y ago
  They’re underprepared because they weren’t adequately prepared beforehand.
anoonmoose 4y ago
The only thing I noticed quantified in this paper was the number of students failing. Could just as easily be explained by a decline on the teacher's end.
- ticviking 4y ago
  Considering that the same system is producing both students and teachers it seems very likely that the quality of both could be declining in a feedback loop. Less prepared instructors produce lower quality students who are themselves poor instructors.

pfdietz 4y ago

AUTHOR: Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) QUOTATION: 97% of quotes on the Internet are complete fabrications.

yeezyseezy 4y ago
Funny enough, the source[0] that uses this formatting also points out the quote is a fabrication. [0]: https://www.bartleby.com/73/195.html https://www.bartleby.com/73/195.html

pimbrah 4y ago

Socrates didn't leave any writings

anoonmoose 4y ago
Yeah, but Plato, who knew him, did I mean this quote isn't in Plato's writings either but still

mwcampbell 4y ago

I don't think that's what the professor is doing. From the article: > specifically. Please note, I am not trying to “blame” students for their failing performance; rather, I am trying to understand it. Remedying the situation will require action by both students and faculty.

tchaffee 4y ago
The author then goes on to blame students in 4 out 5 of the following points. To his credit he does suggest several changes he and faculty could make by the end of the article. But I think he's missing the most relevent point: with the vast number of online educational resources on the net, many students have been exposed to what great teaching looks like. Decades ago when this guy started teaching he did not have to survive that competition and comparison. He should stop entirely worrying about what students need to do and up his own game to at least match what anyone can find for free on video streaming platforms and elsewhere. He is the paid professional here. When he has eliminated his own shortcomings then he can perhaps start to correctly identify things that aren't a result of those shortcomings.
- shafoshaf 4y ago
  They may have been exposed to great teaching, but do they recognize it? Asking people how they feel about the learning without an objective criteria to measure their performance could be a recipe for a local maximum.
  - tchaffee 4y ago
    > but do they recognize it? They don't need to for it to affect attendance. You stick around when you find something captivating and skip that which you find dull. And something that was captivating twenty years ago compared to the other content that was available at that time might be dull compared to today's content. Teachers can't expect styles and material from decades ago to just work like it used to.
shkkmo 4y ago
Yet the professor rejects out of hand that any changes need to happen with the course material, instead deciding the he needs to do a better job of "explaining how to succeed in the class" and "somehow making making office hours more welcoming.' Very little to no time is spent looking at ways to do either of those. This the article really is just mostly the professor complaining about his students while doing no introspection on his own possible failures.

mihaic 4y ago

I see this quote or mentions along this line popping up every single time someone says there is a regression in a newer generation. But some generations actually are worse than their predecessors (at least in certain aspects). There are universal complaints about teenagers: loud, rude, etc, and there are specifics I see for youth today: they are emotionally more fragile and underdeveloped, are more passive in general, understand complex situations less, and have a harder time in accepting reality. I'm not blaming anyone (if I were it would be the boomers that ruined the youth today), but blanked dismissal of issues because "this is how things have always been" doesn't help. For most of human history we've been at war and at the brink of starvation, and all the while there was a concentrated effort to handle those issues.

mstipetic 4y ago
What is this objective reality people struggle to accept?
- mellavora 4y ago
  If you don't pay your bills, people come and take your stuff. Then other people come and make you leave your residence. Then you get to live in your car. Unless someone has come and taken that.
  - logicprog 4y ago
    In what way are we "struggling to accept" this reality? If you mean that we want to change this, that's an entirely different discussion and not necessarily an automatic point against us.
  - tchaffee 4y ago
    > If you don't pay your bills, people come and take your stuff. What gave you the idea that younger generations aren't aware of this? About 17 out of 10,000 people in the US are homeless. The vast majority of people in the US are not experiencing what you are describing.
  - 4y ago

UweSchmidt 4y ago

I see no reason to outright dismiss Sokrates' analysis, nor the professor's, who is giving quantifyable data (deteriorating grades, grade inflation) and mentioning plausible issues (deteriorationg attention spans). The world is constantly changing and influencing each upcoming generation, for the better or worse, and Sokrates considered this issue important enough to discuss.

yobbo 4y ago

To be fair, the ancient Greece did decline and "fall". Probably, this what the Romans said towards the end of their run as well.

tlear 4y ago

This is why going back to Math is always the way. Out of 100 students in Econ 101. How many can read a problem and setup then solve a simple linear system? Forget it how many can solve a linear system Old professor I had in university would do a Math quiz in the first class, with disclaimer on the paper: If you find this hard save your money and drop out. Just some basic Algebra. Tenure and teaching for 30 years, he genuinely did not give a fuck. Of course lots of people would skip first class due to their O week.. Same epic prof would give exactly same tests year to year with 2-3 number changed around.. then fail everyone who provided answers from a wrong year. You would think people would learn or word would get passed down.. nope.