3 ms·

What you're saying doesn't make any sense. Catalytic converters, fuel pumps, and alternators are easy to replace. This doesn't mean that ICE cars just disappear

What you're saying doesn't make any sense. Catalytic converters, fuel pumps, and alternators are easy to replace. This doesn't mean that ICE cars just disappear from the road when those components fail. Anyone with mechanical knowledge, tools, and patience can rebuild an engine or a transmission. It really is not that difficult. When you have a vehicle with a monolithic conformal battery pack, once you can't buy a new one the car is junk. Unless you just so happen to own a factory you can afford to retool.

ZoomerCretin 4y ago
Why are you assuming that new batteries will not be available?
theshrike79 4y ago
There will be a huge 3rd party industry replacing and upgrading batteries for EVs. It doesn't exist yet beyond some small enterprises because there isn't enough volume: even 10+ year old EVs are still going strong with very few battery issues. We need to wait longer to get any business going. There was a dude in Finland who replaced and upgraded Nissan Leaf batteries, he had to stop because it was a) impossible to get new batteries due to huge demand b) ran out of customers.
- Workaccount2 4y ago
  I've thought about doing this, but I envision the legal headaches and DRM that will inevitably creep into the batteries being not worth the effort. It's even possible to DRM at the cell level, and I fully expect OEMs to do that.
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    The bigger problem is batteries have moved into "structural elements" in the current "skateboard" designs. Removing the batteries potentially damages the foundational structure of the car and may need expensive mitigations.
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    You can't get DRM "at the cell level". The batteries are just simple Panasonic 18650s, adding some DRM component to each and every one of them would be cost-inefficient and would also cause a huge problem if the chip fails during warranty. The controllers are black boxes though, but you can get 3rd party units for Tesla batteries _today_. JerryRigEverything on Youtube built his own EV Hummvee on the military chassis using some Model X batteries and all 3rd party electronics. It wasn't plug and play, but perfectly doable in a semi-well stocked home garage.
- sidewndr46 4y ago
  Not following you here: Your suggestion for evidence that 3rd party batteries will be available is that some guy in Finland couldn't get enough supply?
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    A single hobbyist in Finland could run a profitable business replacing Nissan Leaf batteries unofficially. The dude managed to install a 25% larger battery in the car and fool the on board computer to accept it. Just imagine what can be done with actual resources and R&D. The current limiting issue isn't skill or technology, but available new batteries. They can't make them fast enough even for new cars, never mind for spare parts. But when battery production ramps high enough, there's absolutely nothing preventing people from upgrading existing batteries with more modern tech - bigger battery capacity in the same space. There will also be a huge industry converting "dead" EV batteries to in-house battery backups. A car with 50% battery degradation is a bit iffy, but the battery will still have tens of kWh of usable capacity. Enough to run a house for a day or two in a pinch - or just store cheap energy and sell it back to the grid when the price goes up.
    - sidewndr46 4y ago
      "But when battery production ramps high enough" If we're talking hypothetically, why not just expect someone to develop a battery that lasts forever?
      - theshrike79 4y ago
        There are no technological or supply barriers to the battery production ramp-up. It just takes time to build enough factories to produce enough.
hampereddustbin 4y ago
>Anyone with mechanical knowledge, tools, and patience can Just like everyone with a PC and an internet connection can become a software developer; there are a few steps in between why it doesen't "just" happen
- Amezarak 4y ago
  I don't think he is making the argument that anyone can/will do it, but that there is and will be plenty of mechanics willing and able to do the work and able to procure the parts, which he saying will not be the case with replacement battery packs on old cars. There is some reason to believe this; stories like this [1] are going around, where EV owners have been told they need to replace the battery pack but, by the way, the part cannot be procured. [1] https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/local/electric-car-battery-replacement-costs-more-than-car/67-46243c70-124b-43e9-9a6e-fca01dc40cc4 https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/local/electric-car-battery...

ZoomerCretin 4y ago

Why are you assuming that new batteries will not be available?

theshrike79 4y ago

There will be a huge 3rd party industry replacing and upgrading batteries for EVs. It doesn't exist yet beyond some small enterprises because there isn't enough volume: even 10+ year old EVs are still going strong with very few battery issues. We need to wait longer to get any business going. There was a dude in Finland who replaced and upgraded Nissan Leaf batteries, he had to stop because it was a) impossible to get new batteries due to huge demand b) ran out of customers.

Workaccount2 4y ago
I've thought about doing this, but I envision the legal headaches and DRM that will inevitably creep into the batteries being not worth the effort. It's even possible to DRM at the cell level, and I fully expect OEMs to do that.
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  The bigger problem is batteries have moved into "structural elements" in the current "skateboard" designs. Removing the batteries potentially damages the foundational structure of the car and may need expensive mitigations.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  You can't get DRM "at the cell level". The batteries are just simple Panasonic 18650s, adding some DRM component to each and every one of them would be cost-inefficient and would also cause a huge problem if the chip fails during warranty. The controllers are black boxes though, but you can get 3rd party units for Tesla batteries _today_. JerryRigEverything on Youtube built his own EV Hummvee on the military chassis using some Model X batteries and all 3rd party electronics. It wasn't plug and play, but perfectly doable in a semi-well stocked home garage.
sidewndr46 4y ago
Not following you here: Your suggestion for evidence that 3rd party batteries will be available is that some guy in Finland couldn't get enough supply?
- theshrike79 4y ago
  A single hobbyist in Finland could run a profitable business replacing Nissan Leaf batteries unofficially. The dude managed to install a 25% larger battery in the car and fool the on board computer to accept it. Just imagine what can be done with actual resources and R&D. The current limiting issue isn't skill or technology, but available new batteries. They can't make them fast enough even for new cars, never mind for spare parts. But when battery production ramps high enough, there's absolutely nothing preventing people from upgrading existing batteries with more modern tech - bigger battery capacity in the same space. There will also be a huge industry converting "dead" EV batteries to in-house battery backups. A car with 50% battery degradation is a bit iffy, but the battery will still have tens of kWh of usable capacity. Enough to run a house for a day or two in a pinch - or just store cheap energy and sell it back to the grid when the price goes up.
  - sidewndr46 4y ago
    "But when battery production ramps high enough" If we're talking hypothetically, why not just expect someone to develop a battery that lasts forever?
    - theshrike79 4y ago
      There are no technological or supply barriers to the battery production ramp-up. It just takes time to build enough factories to produce enough.

hampereddustbin 4y ago

>Anyone with mechanical knowledge, tools, and patience can Just like everyone with a PC and an internet connection can become a software developer; there are a few steps in between why it doesen't "just" happen

Amezarak 4y ago
I don't think he is making the argument that anyone can/will do it, but that there is and will be plenty of mechanics willing and able to do the work and able to procure the parts, which he saying will not be the case with replacement battery packs on old cars. There is some reason to believe this; stories like this [1] are going around, where EV owners have been told they need to replace the battery pack but, by the way, the part cannot be procured. [1] https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/local/electric-car-battery-replacement-costs-more-than-car/67-46243c70-124b-43e9-9a6e-fca01dc40cc4 https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/local/electric-car-battery...