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The person Carlsen accused of cheating has a documented and admitted history of it. Officials literally found weights inside the fish. Both of those are in this

The person Carlsen accused of cheating has a documented and admitted history of it. Officials literally found weights inside the fish. Both of those are in this story.

greggsy 4y ago
The video is damming
joekrill 4y ago
> The person Carlsen accused of cheating has a documented and admitted history of it. So what? Just because someone has cheated in the past does not in any way prove that they've cheated in this particular case. It only proves they've cheated in the past. Is it suspicious? Sure. But any accusations of cheating are still pure speculation. > Officials literally found weights inside the fish. Both of those are in this story. And I specifically mentioned this in my comment.
- threatofrain 4y ago
  > So what? Getting caught for cheating has an impact on credibility. Credibility is a big deal and a hard problem. The boy who cried wolf is not a story of no wolves. Are you surprised that cheating impacts credibility? In a court of law we might have standards like preponderance of evidence or reasonable doubt. In everyday human relations everyone is free to develop their own theories of credibility and to act upon their freedoms accordingly. You are free to judge whether Microsoft is trustworthy even without proof that they will betray your trust in the future, which nobody really knows.
  - ryandrake 4y ago
    Neither lack of credibility nor a history of cheating is evidence of cheating.
    - threatofrain 4y ago
      Evidence is the tool by which people attempt to get an edge over uncertainty. Lacking medical credibility is not proof that you're medically foolish, but it's certainly evidence. Conversely, having medical credibility is not proof that your doctor's plan is medically wise, but it's certainly evidence. It's your call if you wish ignore to medical credibility when evaluating your doctor's advice. Perhaps you'll engage in a discussion about how their medical credibility is not adequate evidence, but at that point, isn't it time to get a doctor you find credible?
- mylons 4y ago
  statistical analysis of Hans play indicates he’s cheating, especially against Magnus’ style. your comments indicate you lack any depth in poker or chess.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    This isn't true at all.
    - mylons 4y ago
      Hans makes the most +EV plays against unconventional Magnus openings. He’s either the greatest chess player alive, (and like Robbi can’t even explain his game, and admitted to cheating in the past) or he’s cheating. i’m happy to bet quite a bit of money that Hans is a nobody in 5 years in chess. what evidence do you have for your position?
      - whimsicalism 4y ago
        If you think making engine moves at the level Hans is at is evidence that he is cheating, I think you are just not very well informed about chess. > He’s either the greatest chess player alive Ridiculous, nothing about his play suggests he's the greatest chess player alive.
        mylons 4y ago
        how do you defend Hans, then? you’re just doubting what i’m saying without substance
        whimsicalism 4y ago
        The burden is to show that Hans is cheating OTB. I don't really know whether he is cheating OTB, although I think it is unlikely - but AFAIK there hasn't really been any statistical evidence of Hans cheating OTB and I'm not really sure what such evidence would even look like for a super GM who one would expect to routinely play engine moves.
Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
> The person Carlsen accused of cheating has a documented and admitted history of it. So what? He was 16 yo kid who did a stupid thing playing online. How exactly does that relate to top-level over the board tournament with anti-cheating measures which organizers deemed sufficient to stop cheating? So far there is nothing but allegations.
- joshuamorton 4y ago
  He's currently 19, and there are apparently more recent cheating things per chess.com. This isn't like "he cheated long ago and has made amends", it's guy whose cheated recently, and whose coach was also banned due to a history of cheating was found to be acting and playing suspiciously well in recent otb tournaments". Maybe it's nothing, but it's not as nothing as you're making it out to be.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
    16 and 19 is a far greater age difference than it would seem by numbers only. Online play and over the board play are greatly different too. In sum, we have no hard evidence, and many allegations. I'd suggest ignoring allegations until we see some more substantial evidence.
- Pyramus 4y ago
  > He was 16 yo kid who did a stupid thing playing online. If chess.com is to be believed this is not the case, and they have informed Niemann about it. According to them Niemann has cheated more often and more recently than he admitted, and lied about it when he made his statement. > How exactly does that relate to top-level over the board tournament with anti-cheating measures which organizers deemed sufficient Professional chess has a huge cheating problem: It is very easy to cheat, chess tournaments are under-funded, and anti-cheating measures are expensive. There are worlds between, say, chess and cycling, or chess cheating and card counting.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
    chess.com has a lot of false positives in their cheating detection method, and they are in business relationship with Carlsen, so any testimony they migth give will likely be biased. I am actually very surprised to see so many people throwing away any notion of a due process and calling for immediate harsh punishment like lifetime ban.
roflyear 4y ago
Not of OTB cheating which is another thing entirely.
jlportx 4y ago
Niemann has admitted to cheating online on chess.com before 2020, like at least 50 other titled players. Niemann has denied ever cheating over the board. After the win against Carlsen, chess.com removed him from one of their online tournaments, and a couple of chess.com adjacent streamers insinuated the online cheating. Under that pressure, Niemann mentioned a coordinated attack and admitted to to cheating at the age of 12 and 16, but not in prize money tournaments. To see how easy it goes online, here is a video of Carlsen taking a move from Howell during a prize money tournament in Lichess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NrOv8hxN6g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NrOv8hxN6g It can't be compared to deliberately using an engine, but clearly the standards are different online. chess.com has announced that it will release an additional investigation into Niemann soon. The involvement of an online company into an OTB tournament is unprecedented and comes after the takeover of the "Play Magnus" group. chess.com also released a private cheating conversation with Dlugy, from whom Niemann had taken lessons a long time ago. So, out of the 50 cases only those who are "involved" in a win against Carlsen are being targeted. I assume that chess.com will keep the rest of the files for future "use". FIDE, the real official organization, is investigating as well but will probably not find any OTB cheating cases.

The person Carlsen accused of cheating has a documented and admitted history of it. Officials literally found weights inside the fish. Both of those are in this story.

greggsy 4y ago

The video is damming

joekrill 4y ago

> The person Carlsen accused of cheating has a documented and admitted history of it. So what? Just because someone has cheated in the past does not in any way prove that they've cheated in this particular case. It only proves they've cheated in the past. Is it suspicious? Sure. But any accusations of cheating are still pure speculation. > Officials literally found weights inside the fish. Both of those are in this story. And I specifically mentioned this in my comment.

threatofrain 4y ago
> So what? Getting caught for cheating has an impact on credibility. Credibility is a big deal and a hard problem. The boy who cried wolf is not a story of no wolves. Are you surprised that cheating impacts credibility? In a court of law we might have standards like preponderance of evidence or reasonable doubt. In everyday human relations everyone is free to develop their own theories of credibility and to act upon their freedoms accordingly. You are free to judge whether Microsoft is trustworthy even without proof that they will betray your trust in the future, which nobody really knows.
- ryandrake 4y ago
  Neither lack of credibility nor a history of cheating is evidence of cheating.
  - threatofrain 4y ago
    Evidence is the tool by which people attempt to get an edge over uncertainty. Lacking medical credibility is not proof that you're medically foolish, but it's certainly evidence. Conversely, having medical credibility is not proof that your doctor's plan is medically wise, but it's certainly evidence. It's your call if you wish ignore to medical credibility when evaluating your doctor's advice. Perhaps you'll engage in a discussion about how their medical credibility is not adequate evidence, but at that point, isn't it time to get a doctor you find credible?
mylons 4y ago
statistical analysis of Hans play indicates he’s cheating, especially against Magnus’ style. your comments indicate you lack any depth in poker or chess.
- roflyear 4y ago
  This isn't true at all.
  - mylons 4y ago
    Hans makes the most +EV plays against unconventional Magnus openings. He’s either the greatest chess player alive, (and like Robbi can’t even explain his game, and admitted to cheating in the past) or he’s cheating. i’m happy to bet quite a bit of money that Hans is a nobody in 5 years in chess. what evidence do you have for your position?
    - whimsicalism 4y ago
      If you think making engine moves at the level Hans is at is evidence that he is cheating, I think you are just not very well informed about chess. > He’s either the greatest chess player alive Ridiculous, nothing about his play suggests he's the greatest chess player alive.
      - mylons 4y ago
        how do you defend Hans, then? you’re just doubting what i’m saying without substance
        whimsicalism 4y ago
        The burden is to show that Hans is cheating OTB. I don't really know whether he is cheating OTB, although I think it is unlikely - but AFAIK there hasn't really been any statistical evidence of Hans cheating OTB and I'm not really sure what such evidence would even look like for a super GM who one would expect to routinely play engine moves.

Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago

> The person Carlsen accused of cheating has a documented and admitted history of it. So what? He was 16 yo kid who did a stupid thing playing online. How exactly does that relate to top-level over the board tournament with anti-cheating measures which organizers deemed sufficient to stop cheating? So far there is nothing but allegations.

joshuamorton 4y ago
He's currently 19, and there are apparently more recent cheating things per chess.com. This isn't like "he cheated long ago and has made amends", it's guy whose cheated recently, and whose coach was also banned due to a history of cheating was found to be acting and playing suspiciously well in recent otb tournaments". Maybe it's nothing, but it's not as nothing as you're making it out to be.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  16 and 19 is a far greater age difference than it would seem by numbers only. Online play and over the board play are greatly different too. In sum, we have no hard evidence, and many allegations. I'd suggest ignoring allegations until we see some more substantial evidence.
Pyramus 4y ago
> He was 16 yo kid who did a stupid thing playing online. If chess.com is to be believed this is not the case, and they have informed Niemann about it. According to them Niemann has cheated more often and more recently than he admitted, and lied about it when he made his statement. > How exactly does that relate to top-level over the board tournament with anti-cheating measures which organizers deemed sufficient Professional chess has a huge cheating problem: It is very easy to cheat, chess tournaments are under-funded, and anti-cheating measures are expensive. There are worlds between, say, chess and cycling, or chess cheating and card counting.
- Andrew_nenakhov 4y ago
  chess.com has a lot of false positives in their cheating detection method, and they are in business relationship with Carlsen, so any testimony they migth give will likely be biased. I am actually very surprised to see so many people throwing away any notion of a due process and calling for immediate harsh punishment like lifetime ban.

roflyear 4y ago

Not of OTB cheating which is another thing entirely.

jlportx 4y ago

Niemann has admitted to cheating online on chess.com before 2020, like at least 50 other titled players. Niemann has denied ever cheating over the board. After the win against Carlsen, chess.com removed him from one of their online tournaments, and a couple of chess.com adjacent streamers insinuated the online cheating. Under that pressure, Niemann mentioned a coordinated attack and admitted to to cheating at the age of 12 and 16, but not in prize money tournaments. To see how easy it goes online, here is a video of Carlsen taking a move from Howell during a prize money tournament in Lichess: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NrOv8hxN6g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NrOv8hxN6g It can't be compared to deliberately using an engine, but clearly the standards are different online. chess.com has announced that it will release an additional investigation into Niemann soon. The involvement of an online company into an OTB tournament is unprecedented and comes after the takeover of the "Play Magnus" group. chess.com also released a private cheating conversation with Dlugy, from whom Niemann had taken lessons a long time ago. So, out of the 50 cases only those who are "involved" in a win against Carlsen are being targeted. I assume that chess.com will keep the rest of the files for future "use". FIDE, the real official organization, is investigating as well but will probably not find any OTB cheating cases.