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You're saying the only way to end discrimination is for the victims to forgive the perpetrators? How would that work exactly? IMO, the only way to move forward

You're saying the only way to end discrimination is for the victims to forgive the perpetrators? How would that work exactly? IMO, the only way to move forward is to correct past wrongs by heavily investing in affected communities economically and afa education and health. What Haidt is being asked to do here does none of these things and is purely for show.

xyzzyz 4y ago
> IMO, the only way to move forward is to correct past wrongs by heavily investing in affected communities economically and afa education and health. As if we hadn't been doing that for past 60 years, with extremely underwhelming (in fact, arguably negative) outcomes.
- deepl_derber 4y ago
  The outcomes have been underwhelming because we (at least, the US) haven't actually been doing this, and we've just found new and arguably worse ways to maintain deeply racist policies.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    If what you say is true, books like “how to be an antiracist” would include examples of these “arguably worse” mechanisms to maintain inequality. They don’t contain such examples. Indeed, a central premise of Kendi’s book is that affirmative measures are required because simply “not being racist” doesn’t work.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      When you say "books like _How To Be An Antiracist_", you mean... bad books, right? Why would you expect bad-faith actors like Kendi to do better?
      - barry-cotter 4y ago
        What’s your disagreement with Kendi and those like him? What changed?
        tptacek 4y ago
        Nothing's changed. I think Kendi is an ideological grifter. It's frustrating to see "normie" anti-racism, of the "BLM lawn sign" variety, tainted by association with him.
        random314 4y ago
        What are the examples of ideological grift? I just found out about Kendi through this comment thread and a simple Google search didn't yield anything.
        rayiner 4y ago
        I don’t think he’s a “grifter.” Kendi thought is just the logical combination of three mainstream progressive ideas: 1) (a) The history and experience of Black people in America is sui generis and (b) justifies responses that don’t need to be generalizable or measure up to ordinary standards of procedural fairness. 2) the “bootstraps”approach of Kendi’s parent’s generation has failed. 3) bureaucratic institutions operated by well meaning credentialed people can solve every problem. Really, the only area where I substantively disagree with him is (3)—the white people in charge of bureaucratic institutions will inevitably use any special powers given to them to advance their own economic and cultural interests.
        tptacek 4y ago
        I don't want to get too far into it, so I'll just say: 1. Virtually nobody with a BLM lawn sign believes this: https://twitter.com/DrIbram/status/1302724276412387334 https://twitter.com/DrIbram/status/1302724276412387334 2. I can't do any better than Kalefa Sanneh at pointing out the incoherence of Kendi's professed world view. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/08/19/the-fight-to-redefine-racism https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/08/19/the-fight-to-r...
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      But how convincingly does he make that case? It seems to be that while we're obviously a long way from a truly race-blind world, someone belonging to a minority ethnic grouping has a much better chance of succeeding in most careers in the average Western country today than they would have 50 years ago. I struggle to believe that's largely due to the weird sort of "anti-racism" Kendi promotes.
    - deepl_derber 4y ago
      I don't see how this follows from what I said at all.
lupire 4y ago
It worked for Polnd in 1939, didn't it?
hbrn 4y ago
> correct past wrongs by heavily investing in affected communities economically and afa education and health Which should eventually lead to forgiveness, right? The framework presented does not include forgiveness at all, the crimes are treated as unforgivable and atonement is eternal. Which clearly indicates that their goal is not to end discrimination.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
  Discrimination is but a small part of the otherization/dehumanization and subjugation disempowered groups are subjected to. To focus on discrimination without regard for the broader socioeconomic landscape different demographics find themselves in by luck of birth is to not see the forest for the trees. Perhaps we should consider what crimes are treated by America as unforgivable as a way to establish common ground and then look at outliers from in groups and out groups for trends? There’s a lot of discussion here that is naive to how social work professionals routinely and successfully resolve these matters. I anticipate rich and colorful debate over the forgivability of rape, child abuse, and murder depending on the offenders demographics, assets, and associations. Forgiveness is a process that victims undertake for themselves when they are out from the clutches of their abusers. Forgiveness is not a trophy for active offenders to carry as a spoil of their conquest, instead it a badge of shame they honor by being a better human than they were when they willingly harmed our caused others to be harmed tangibly or otherwise. Victims must be extraordinarily supported through their healing journey in any community truly invested in solving generational problems, which is not a process that can be scheduled or timed. Some people may never achieve this and accepting that is non negotiable if our goal is to heal. The offenders must work on themselves to, at minimum, become incapable of ever perpetrating these offenses again and be able to articulate the explicit details of their offenses while taking responsibility for their actions and making personal restitution to their direct and indirect victims. Only when both victim and perp have successfully achieved these ends can they be safely reunited. Those who are incapable or refuse to rehabilitate have no place in civil society, their status or demographics are irrelevant. This applies to gang banging murderers as it does to the architects and agents of slavery, the war on drugs/terrorism, or child abusers whether or not they hold status in their communities, etc. Demanding forgiveness for ongoing abuses is laughable and shameful. No one is entitled to being forgiven for their wrongs, especially not if they keep doing the same horrible shit over and over and over again.
OOPMan 4y ago
I would like to point out that one of the important reasons South African didn't descend into a race war at the end of the apartheid was the formation of the Truth & Reconciliation Committee for precisely this reason: to forgive and reconcile.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  > South Africa's ANC defends "Kill the Boer" song > South Africa’s ruling party on Tuesday defended the singing of an apartheid-era song with the words “Kill the Boer” in a row that has raised fears of increasing racial polarisation. > The African National Congress dismissed a ruling by a regional high court last week that uttering or publishing the words would amount to hate speech and violate the constitution put in place after the end of white minority rule. > “These songs cannot be regarded as hate speech or unconstitutional,” ANC Secretary General Gwede Mantashe told a news conference. “Any judgment that describes them as such is impractical and unimplementable.” https://www.reuters.com/article/ozatp-safrica-racism-20100330-idAFJOE62T0IM20100330 https://www.reuters.com/article/ozatp-safrica-racism-2010033...
  - antonvs 4y ago
    And your point is?
dudul 4y ago
Isn't "correcting past wrongs" how wars usually start? Anti-racists don't want justice in the future, they want revenge for the past.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
  do you honestly believe every anti racist wants revenge?

xyzzyz 4y ago

> IMO, the only way to move forward is to correct past wrongs by heavily investing in affected communities economically and afa education and health. As if we hadn't been doing that for past 60 years, with extremely underwhelming (in fact, arguably negative) outcomes.

deepl_derber 4y ago
The outcomes have been underwhelming because we (at least, the US) haven't actually been doing this, and we've just found new and arguably worse ways to maintain deeply racist policies.
- rayiner 4y ago
  If what you say is true, books like “how to be an antiracist” would include examples of these “arguably worse” mechanisms to maintain inequality. They don’t contain such examples. Indeed, a central premise of Kendi’s book is that affirmative measures are required because simply “not being racist” doesn’t work.
  - tptacek 4y ago
    When you say "books like _How To Be An Antiracist_", you mean... bad books, right? Why would you expect bad-faith actors like Kendi to do better?
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      What’s your disagreement with Kendi and those like him? What changed?
      - tptacek 4y ago
        Nothing's changed. I think Kendi is an ideological grifter. It's frustrating to see "normie" anti-racism, of the "BLM lawn sign" variety, tainted by association with him.
        random314 4y ago
        What are the examples of ideological grift? I just found out about Kendi through this comment thread and a simple Google search didn't yield anything.
        rayiner 4y ago
        I don’t think he’s a “grifter.” Kendi thought is just the logical combination of three mainstream progressive ideas: 1) (a) The history and experience of Black people in America is sui generis and (b) justifies responses that don’t need to be generalizable or measure up to ordinary standards of procedural fairness. 2) the “bootstraps”approach of Kendi’s parent’s generation has failed. 3) bureaucratic institutions operated by well meaning credentialed people can solve every problem. Really, the only area where I substantively disagree with him is (3)—the white people in charge of bureaucratic institutions will inevitably use any special powers given to them to advance their own economic and cultural interests.
        tptacek 4y ago
        I don't want to get too far into it, so I'll just say: 1. Virtually nobody with a BLM lawn sign believes this: https://twitter.com/DrIbram/status/1302724276412387334 https://twitter.com/DrIbram/status/1302724276412387334 2. I can't do any better than Kalefa Sanneh at pointing out the incoherence of Kendi's professed world view. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/08/19/the-fight-to-redefine-racism https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/08/19/the-fight-to-r...
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    But how convincingly does he make that case? It seems to be that while we're obviously a long way from a truly race-blind world, someone belonging to a minority ethnic grouping has a much better chance of succeeding in most careers in the average Western country today than they would have 50 years ago. I struggle to believe that's largely due to the weird sort of "anti-racism" Kendi promotes.
  - deepl_derber 4y ago
    I don't see how this follows from what I said at all.

lupire 4y ago

It worked for Polnd in 1939, didn't it?

hbrn 4y ago

> correct past wrongs by heavily investing in affected communities economically and afa education and health Which should eventually lead to forgiveness, right? The framework presented does not include forgiveness at all, the crimes are treated as unforgivable and atonement is eternal. Which clearly indicates that their goal is not to end discrimination.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
Discrimination is but a small part of the otherization/dehumanization and subjugation disempowered groups are subjected to. To focus on discrimination without regard for the broader socioeconomic landscape different demographics find themselves in by luck of birth is to not see the forest for the trees. Perhaps we should consider what crimes are treated by America as unforgivable as a way to establish common ground and then look at outliers from in groups and out groups for trends? There’s a lot of discussion here that is naive to how social work professionals routinely and successfully resolve these matters. I anticipate rich and colorful debate over the forgivability of rape, child abuse, and murder depending on the offenders demographics, assets, and associations. Forgiveness is a process that victims undertake for themselves when they are out from the clutches of their abusers. Forgiveness is not a trophy for active offenders to carry as a spoil of their conquest, instead it a badge of shame they honor by being a better human than they were when they willingly harmed our caused others to be harmed tangibly or otherwise. Victims must be extraordinarily supported through their healing journey in any community truly invested in solving generational problems, which is not a process that can be scheduled or timed. Some people may never achieve this and accepting that is non negotiable if our goal is to heal. The offenders must work on themselves to, at minimum, become incapable of ever perpetrating these offenses again and be able to articulate the explicit details of their offenses while taking responsibility for their actions and making personal restitution to their direct and indirect victims. Only when both victim and perp have successfully achieved these ends can they be safely reunited. Those who are incapable or refuse to rehabilitate have no place in civil society, their status or demographics are irrelevant. This applies to gang banging murderers as it does to the architects and agents of slavery, the war on drugs/terrorism, or child abusers whether or not they hold status in their communities, etc. Demanding forgiveness for ongoing abuses is laughable and shameful. No one is entitled to being forgiven for their wrongs, especially not if they keep doing the same horrible shit over and over and over again.

OOPMan 4y ago

I would like to point out that one of the important reasons South African didn't descend into a race war at the end of the apartheid was the formation of the Truth & Reconciliation Committee for precisely this reason: to forgive and reconcile.

barry-cotter 4y ago
> South Africa's ANC defends "Kill the Boer" song > South Africa’s ruling party on Tuesday defended the singing of an apartheid-era song with the words “Kill the Boer” in a row that has raised fears of increasing racial polarisation. > The African National Congress dismissed a ruling by a regional high court last week that uttering or publishing the words would amount to hate speech and violate the constitution put in place after the end of white minority rule. > “These songs cannot be regarded as hate speech or unconstitutional,” ANC Secretary General Gwede Mantashe told a news conference. “Any judgment that describes them as such is impractical and unimplementable.” https://www.reuters.com/article/ozatp-safrica-racism-20100330-idAFJOE62T0IM20100330 https://www.reuters.com/article/ozatp-safrica-racism-2010033...
- antonvs 4y ago
  And your point is?

dudul 4y ago

Isn't "correcting past wrongs" how wars usually start? Anti-racists don't want justice in the future, they want revenge for the past.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 4y ago
do you honestly believe every anti racist wants revenge?