4 ms·

>64 packets transmitted, 64 received, 0% packet loss, time 156ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 2.293/6.699/63.116/7.364 ms A 63ms delay on some packets can totally ru

>64 packets transmitted, 64 received, 0% packet loss, time 156ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 2.293/6.699/63.116/7.364 ms A 63ms delay on some packets can totally ruin the user experience even if the average is relatively low... and this is the best a near-optimal (in the real world) setup can do. If you left your test running longer than 64 packets, I'm sure you would see at least a 100ms max. GP wasn't far-off with their assertion that running on WiFi can easily add 30-50ms of latency. Their wording was a bit loose though.

vel0city 4y ago
That 63ms packet was one packet. It's way out of the standard deviation. You don't point to the max and state that's the typical experience of the network. If we only looked at max values then Amazon isn't 2 day shipping it's like 1 month because some delivery sometime took that long, even though like 95% of deliveries are within two days (just an example, don't know what their actual rates are) And on top of that, that's with an extremely cheap chip with a compromised antenna inside a network closet with a TCXO literally right on top of the antenna running on 2.4FHz. My 5GHz example with a nice AX chip and decent laptop lid edge antenna never experienced any pings higher than 1ms.
- josefx 4y ago
  > You don't point to the max and state that's the typical experience of the network. The test uses 64 packages which is a tiny sample size for streaming use. If we blindly scale that up you would hit the max several dozen times per minute. > If we only looked at max values then Amazon isn't 2 day shipping it's like 1 A better example: Imagine your tongue just stops moving once every minute and then tries to catch up with what you where doing, imagine this will happen for the next two months. It is just a minor annoyance, right?
  - wtallis 4y ago
    A relevant ping test should also be sending packets far more often than once per second (more like once per frame at a minimum), and should be sending larger packets than the default for ping.
    - vel0city 4y ago
      Here you go, 1 thousand byte payload ping sent every 0.02 seconds on my Pi Zero W. ping -i 0.02 -s 1400 router.home.lan . . . lots of pings . . . 6203 packets transmitted, 6203 received, 0% packet loss, time 128938ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 2.023/3.397/43.075/1.785 ms, pipe 2 The previous ping had the Zero W way overloaded, I realized that after. Single core running with a load average of 2.8, still managed to be decently interactive and have the previous pings. This ping was happening while having 1 minute load average of 1.2. So only kind of overloaded ;) This kind of latency is achievable on a $10 board with only 2.4GHz Wireless N. Suggesting WiFi adds 50ms latency on average is extreme hyperbole.
      - jimmydorry 4y ago
        Again, max ping of 43ms. The worst kind of latency is the unpredictable kind that can't be compensated for. The reaction speed of a casual gamer will be somewhere near 180-250ms. If we take the upper bound, occasionally the casual gamer's input will take 17.2% longer to register.
        vel0city 4y ago
        So if even 99.9999% of pings were <5ms, but one was 40ms, you'd define that link as a 40ms experience?
        jimmydorry 4y ago
        For gaming, your experience is absolutely degraded by spikes in ping. A consistent 50ms latency is far better than a 5ms with the occasional >50ms latency.
        vel0city 4y ago
        So yes, one packet a day at 50ms would be considered unplayable to you, even if 99.9999999999999% of the packets were <5ms, because it is the "occasional" 50ms latency. That's what you're arguing when looking at just the max value. Makes sense.
  - Etherlord87 4y ago
    An important aspect that I think is overlooked: even if the latency is so subtle that it's overlooked, subconsciously you may have a feeling that something is off, your perception of the product will be worse, you will perhaps become frustrated without even knowing why. A person I know was diagnosed with tinnitus. And it (the diagnosis) made him happy. For over a year he was frustrated, nervous, but he didn't know why. Turns out he was hearing noise all that time, but just didn't realize it. Sounds (pun not intended) ridiculous, but that's how the mind works.
- jimmydorry 4y ago
  You're dancing around the issue at play though. An application that hitches or glitches for a second every few minutes will quickly become irritating. It doesn't matter if it works 99% of the time. It has to work 100% of the time or its strictly inferior to console or PC.

vel0city 4y ago

That 63ms packet was one packet. It's way out of the standard deviation. You don't point to the max and state that's the typical experience of the network. If we only looked at max values then Amazon isn't 2 day shipping it's like 1 month because some delivery sometime took that long, even though like 95% of deliveries are within two days (just an example, don't know what their actual rates are) And on top of that, that's with an extremely cheap chip with a compromised antenna inside a network closet with a TCXO literally right on top of the antenna running on 2.4FHz. My 5GHz example with a nice AX chip and decent laptop lid edge antenna never experienced any pings higher than 1ms.

josefx 4y ago
> You don't point to the max and state that's the typical experience of the network. The test uses 64 packages which is a tiny sample size for streaming use. If we blindly scale that up you would hit the max several dozen times per minute. > If we only looked at max values then Amazon isn't 2 day shipping it's like 1 A better example: Imagine your tongue just stops moving once every minute and then tries to catch up with what you where doing, imagine this will happen for the next two months. It is just a minor annoyance, right?
- wtallis 4y ago
  A relevant ping test should also be sending packets far more often than once per second (more like once per frame at a minimum), and should be sending larger packets than the default for ping.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    Here you go, 1 thousand byte payload ping sent every 0.02 seconds on my Pi Zero W. ping -i 0.02 -s 1400 router.home.lan . . . lots of pings . . . 6203 packets transmitted, 6203 received, 0% packet loss, time 128938ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 2.023/3.397/43.075/1.785 ms, pipe 2 The previous ping had the Zero W way overloaded, I realized that after. Single core running with a load average of 2.8, still managed to be decently interactive and have the previous pings. This ping was happening while having 1 minute load average of 1.2. So only kind of overloaded ;) This kind of latency is achievable on a $10 board with only 2.4GHz Wireless N. Suggesting WiFi adds 50ms latency on average is extreme hyperbole.
    - jimmydorry 4y ago
      Again, max ping of 43ms. The worst kind of latency is the unpredictable kind that can't be compensated for. The reaction speed of a casual gamer will be somewhere near 180-250ms. If we take the upper bound, occasionally the casual gamer's input will take 17.2% longer to register.
      - vel0city 4y ago
        So if even 99.9999% of pings were <5ms, but one was 40ms, you'd define that link as a 40ms experience?
        jimmydorry 4y ago
        For gaming, your experience is absolutely degraded by spikes in ping. A consistent 50ms latency is far better than a 5ms with the occasional >50ms latency.
        vel0city 4y ago
        So yes, one packet a day at 50ms would be considered unplayable to you, even if 99.9999999999999% of the packets were <5ms, because it is the "occasional" 50ms latency. That's what you're arguing when looking at just the max value. Makes sense.
- Etherlord87 4y ago
  An important aspect that I think is overlooked: even if the latency is so subtle that it's overlooked, subconsciously you may have a feeling that something is off, your perception of the product will be worse, you will perhaps become frustrated without even knowing why. A person I know was diagnosed with tinnitus. And it (the diagnosis) made him happy. For over a year he was frustrated, nervous, but he didn't know why. Turns out he was hearing noise all that time, but just didn't realize it. Sounds (pun not intended) ridiculous, but that's how the mind works.
jimmydorry 4y ago
You're dancing around the issue at play though. An application that hitches or glitches for a second every few minutes will quickly become irritating. It doesn't matter if it works 99% of the time. It has to work 100% of the time or its strictly inferior to console or PC.