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Toyota has phevs (plug-in hybrids) that can run fully off of the battery. They have gotten a lot of shit over the past year for arguing that these should be inc

Toyota has phevs (plug-in hybrids) that can run fully off of the battery. They have gotten a lot of shit over the past year for arguing that these should be incentivized by the government in addition to full electric vehicles, but I think there is some merit to their position. Right now a lot of people who buy electric cars are wealthier people who also own other cars. This is not inherently bad and, for example, if a household that is going to own multiple cars either way chooses to make one of those electric it may be a win for the environment, but if people are buying extra cars because they are excited about electric cars but also need a conventional car when they go longer distances, that may not actually be that great. Until there are sufficient charger networks everywhere, it might actually be better to incentives phevs to build up the infrastructure and ensure that people who can only afford to own one car but need to travel longer distances can still use electricity for shorter trips in the form of phevs rather than continuing to use conventional cars. It's not completely clear if EV adoption will continue to accelerate or if it's going to hit limits when we run out of people who can easily switch. Toyota may have a point in that the current timetable for full adoption of evs may be unrealistic, and if it is, it might be better to compromise slightly more if it makes it easier to build up the infrastructure on a more realistic timetable rather than risk hitting a wall If we set the goal as 100% of vehicles being EVs in a relatively short amount of time, we're going to run into problems who are currently unable to use EVs because of the lack of a fast charger network. (In reality, battery swapping would probably make sense for longer trips once everyone is using evs, but there is zero infrastructure for that right now.) That said, another issue with electric cars in general is that for the type of short trip where they make the most sense, it might arguably be better for the environment to focus on electric public transportation when possible anyway (especially non-battery-powered street cars and light rail which aren't affected by supply of some of the elements required for batteries). Also, if we can't hit the targets for EV adoption we may have difficulty hitting environmental goals in general.

MerelyMortal 4y ago
Doomberg has a position that I agree with: It's better for 6 or 7 plug-in hybrids to be developed using the same amount of batteries materials it would take to make one fully-electric vehicle. Most people make short-range daily trips each day, and they could probably do 100% on the battery of a hybrid. The gas portion would kick-in when they do an occassional longer trip. No significant change to infrastructure would be required, and gasoline use would go down dramatically as most people would be using the smaller battery most of the time, and adoption would be way faster than fully-electric.
- CameronNemo 4y ago
  The Prius Prime (PHEV) maxes out at 25 miles of electric range. And that is under optimal conditions. The average daily commute is longer than that.
  - mlyle 4y ago
    I have a Honda Clarity. 48 mile range, though I only charge it to 90%. I've gone 15,000 miles now on about 30 gallons of gas. I keep trying to get over "500 miles to the gallon" but that's a limit I have a hard time surpassing: occasional long trips or forgetting to charge does me in. (Not to mention the car will occasionally burn gas on its own just to confirm the engine is in good working order). It seems like it would be a waste for me to have a 200-300 mile range and no engine. The longest trips would still have been less convenient. And you could build 4-7 cars like mine with the same battery resources.
    - ok_dad 4y ago
      Ideally one could configure their hybrid car with different battery to gas tank ratios when they buy it, or perhaps even for a fee after purchase.
      - mlyle 4y ago
        Gas tanks are small and light compared to batteries and engines. It all comes down to how much battery you want, and whether you want an engine.
  - mixedCase 4y ago
    In the US*
  - cma 4y ago
    So then it is better to transition the people with a commute below average first before subsidizing full EV.
    - 4y ago
Wesmio 4y ago
In Germany we just stopped incentiving them because people just didn't charge them. They just didn't care.
- llampx 4y ago
  Maybe now with gas above 2€/liter, we'll see more people charging their PHEVs. However they are also a rich person's toy, since you need to charge them at home to have the battery-powered miles be cheaper than the petrol-powered ones ergo you need a home with a garage. At public chargers you pay much more than at home per kWh. On top of that, they have been incentivized (0,25 Regelung) for companies as fleet cars (Dienstwagen) and companies give out free petrol so you have no incentive to charge it at home using your own electricity when you can just fill up otherwise with free petrol.
  - Wesmio 4y ago
    Personally I think economic of scale is happening with EV and just skipping everything in between will just solve those issues. Better longer cheaper batteries for everyone. We are on the road to solving solid state batteries. I don't think we are throwing enough resources against those topics. This would solve so many issues at once.
- Tagbert 4y ago
  Was that for private vehicles that people bought themselves and paid for the fuel and electricity themselves? I remember a few years ago a study out of Europe of plugin hybrids that found the drivers didn’t plug them in. One the details came out we found that those were corporate vehicles assigned to them mainly for business use. They were reimbursed for gasoline purchases but were not reimbursed for electricity. The result was that they chose the option that results in less personal cost to them. I find it hard to believe that people will elect to spend more money on a plugin hybrid and then not bother plugging it in as long as they have an easy access to a power outlet. Just the extra cost of gasoline in that scenario should overcome the minor effort of developing a habit of plugging in when you get home.
  - 4y ago
hedora 4y ago
Ok, then they should sell EV versions of the same cars with half the drive train ripped out for $7000 less, and see how many people buy those instead.

MerelyMortal 4y ago

Doomberg has a position that I agree with: It's better for 6 or 7 plug-in hybrids to be developed using the same amount of batteries materials it would take to make one fully-electric vehicle. Most people make short-range daily trips each day, and they could probably do 100% on the battery of a hybrid. The gas portion would kick-in when they do an occassional longer trip. No significant change to infrastructure would be required, and gasoline use would go down dramatically as most people would be using the smaller battery most of the time, and adoption would be way faster than fully-electric.

CameronNemo 4y ago
The Prius Prime (PHEV) maxes out at 25 miles of electric range. And that is under optimal conditions. The average daily commute is longer than that.
- mlyle 4y ago
  I have a Honda Clarity. 48 mile range, though I only charge it to 90%. I've gone 15,000 miles now on about 30 gallons of gas. I keep trying to get over "500 miles to the gallon" but that's a limit I have a hard time surpassing: occasional long trips or forgetting to charge does me in. (Not to mention the car will occasionally burn gas on its own just to confirm the engine is in good working order). It seems like it would be a waste for me to have a 200-300 mile range and no engine. The longest trips would still have been less convenient. And you could build 4-7 cars like mine with the same battery resources.
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    Ideally one could configure their hybrid car with different battery to gas tank ratios when they buy it, or perhaps even for a fee after purchase.
    - mlyle 4y ago
      Gas tanks are small and light compared to batteries and engines. It all comes down to how much battery you want, and whether you want an engine.
- mixedCase 4y ago
  In the US*
- cma 4y ago
  So then it is better to transition the people with a commute below average first before subsidizing full EV.
  - 4y ago

Wesmio 4y ago

In Germany we just stopped incentiving them because people just didn't charge them. They just didn't care.

llampx 4y ago
Maybe now with gas above 2€/liter, we'll see more people charging their PHEVs. However they are also a rich person's toy, since you need to charge them at home to have the battery-powered miles be cheaper than the petrol-powered ones ergo you need a home with a garage. At public chargers you pay much more than at home per kWh. On top of that, they have been incentivized (0,25 Regelung) for companies as fleet cars (Dienstwagen) and companies give out free petrol so you have no incentive to charge it at home using your own electricity when you can just fill up otherwise with free petrol.
- Wesmio 4y ago
  Personally I think economic of scale is happening with EV and just skipping everything in between will just solve those issues. Better longer cheaper batteries for everyone. We are on the road to solving solid state batteries. I don't think we are throwing enough resources against those topics. This would solve so many issues at once.
Tagbert 4y ago
Was that for private vehicles that people bought themselves and paid for the fuel and electricity themselves? I remember a few years ago a study out of Europe of plugin hybrids that found the drivers didn’t plug them in. One the details came out we found that those were corporate vehicles assigned to them mainly for business use. They were reimbursed for gasoline purchases but were not reimbursed for electricity. The result was that they chose the option that results in less personal cost to them. I find it hard to believe that people will elect to spend more money on a plugin hybrid and then not bother plugging it in as long as they have an easy access to a power outlet. Just the extra cost of gasoline in that scenario should overcome the minor effort of developing a habit of plugging in when you get home.
- 4y ago

hedora 4y ago

Ok, then they should sell EV versions of the same cars with half the drive train ripped out for $7000 less, and see how many people buy those instead.