4 ms·

> not useful as deaf/mute people can read Not all of them can: that's why accessibility is important.

Loic 4y ago
I am not sure why you are down voted, in Germany, we have about 6 millions adults who are functionally illiterate. This is a big issue.
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  This could also be framed as a failure of the educational system.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    https://www.dw.com/en/millions-of-germans-have-trouble-reading-and-writing/a-48633267 https://www.dw.com/en/millions-of-germans-have-trouble-readi... Roughly half of the illiteracy rate in Germany is due to migrants who are not native German speakers. Framing this as a failure of the educational system would be rather ignorant, as that's at most half of the problem.
    - marginalia_nu 4y ago
      I'd think it would be a priority to educate immigrants to a level where they're able to be self-sufficient as well.
    - gus_massa 4y ago
      Illiteracy in that article means illiteracy in German or illiteracy in their native language? Also... > More than 6 million adults in Germany struggle to read and write simple texts in German, a new study has found. Can they read enough to navigate some menus in German?
- richbell 4y ago
  I suspect people misinterpret me pointing out that a group has been historically discriminated against and denied education, or at least not being provided accommodations that allow them to participate, as being bigoted. A lot of people don't realize that the dominant language of a country is usually a deaf person's second or third language. Thus, they may be more comfortable speaking in their first language, sign language (which is regional and not one global language*).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
catiopatio 4y ago
> Not all of them can: that's why accessibility is important. No, that’s why education is important. If they can’t read, that’s a failure of education; fix it there. That’s a lot cheaper and more effective than trying to force the entire world to publish sign-language gif pop-ups as an accessibility measure on their written documents.
- richbell 4y ago
  > No, that’s why education is important. > If they can’t read, that’s a failure of education; fix it there. You can tackle more than one thing at a time. Improving the education system doesn't necessarily help older generations, for example.
  - prepend 4y ago
    The education system shouldn’t only serve children and is part of a lifelong process. My community has many education and training programs for people of all ages. Even ones targeted at helping retirement age seniors read. I don’t think it’s a good idea to incorrectly assume that the education system only serves kids.
    - richbell 4y ago
      > The education system shouldn’t only serve children and is part of a lifelong process. I agree. Unfortunately, in many places it barely serves children, let alone the rest of the community. But this is tangential to my original point, which is that reasonable accommodations are good and that you can improve accessibility and education at the same time.
prepend 4y ago
What about non-deaf people who can’t read? How do they experience the site? Isn’t accessibility important for non-readers? I would expect there are more illiterate people who can hear than dead people who are illiterate. Either way, it seems like the best way for the site to accommodate visitors is to use accessibility features so their written content can be used by screen readers for the sight impaired but also sign language displayers for people who prefer sign language and text to speech for people who can’t read but can hear. I don’t think accessibility should be binary for one or the other but dedicating resources to visual sign language seems like a luxury that most sites can’t afford.
- richbell 4y ago
  > Either way, it seems like the best way for the site to accommodate visitors is to use accessibility features so their written content can be used by screen readers for the sight impaired but also sign language displayers for people who prefer sign language and text to speech for people who can’t read but can hear. While the implementation could definitely be improved, I can't fault them for trying. Perhaps stuff like this will be streamlined in the next decade. > I don’t think accessibility should be binary for one or the other but dedicating resources to visual sign language seems like a luxury that most sites can’t afford. You could make the same argument about making sites compatible with screen readers — and many do. At the end of the day, I think it's reasonable for government services to be held to a higher standard of accessibility.
  - prepend 4y ago
    In the US there is a standard in the ADA called section 508 that specifies what is required. I can fault them for trying if their failure makes it harder for people to access the site. At the end of the day there’s a fixed dev budget and if it’s spent on one thing and misses other important things that’s bad. It is nice that they have good intentions and it’s better than nothing. But they should be faulted so they can correct the fault and do better next time.
    - richbell 4y ago

Loic 4y ago

I am not sure why you are down voted, in Germany, we have about 6 millions adults who are functionally illiterate. This is a big issue.

marginalia_nu 4y ago
This could also be framed as a failure of the educational system.
- klyrs 4y ago
  https://www.dw.com/en/millions-of-germans-have-trouble-reading-and-writing/a-48633267 https://www.dw.com/en/millions-of-germans-have-trouble-readi... Roughly half of the illiteracy rate in Germany is due to migrants who are not native German speakers. Framing this as a failure of the educational system would be rather ignorant, as that's at most half of the problem.
  - marginalia_nu 4y ago
    I'd think it would be a priority to educate immigrants to a level where they're able to be self-sufficient as well.
  - gus_massa 4y ago
    Illiteracy in that article means illiteracy in German or illiteracy in their native language? Also... > More than 6 million adults in Germany struggle to read and write simple texts in German, a new study has found. Can they read enough to navigate some menus in German?
richbell 4y ago
I suspect people misinterpret me pointing out that a group has been historically discriminated against and denied education, or at least not being provided accommodations that allow them to participate, as being bigoted. A lot of people don't realize that the dominant language of a country is usually a deaf person's second or third language. Thus, they may be more comfortable speaking in their first language, sign language (which is regional and not one global language*).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

catiopatio 4y ago

> Not all of them can: that's why accessibility is important. No, that’s why education is important. If they can’t read, that’s a failure of education; fix it there. That’s a lot cheaper and more effective than trying to force the entire world to publish sign-language gif pop-ups as an accessibility measure on their written documents.

richbell 4y ago
> No, that’s why education is important. > If they can’t read, that’s a failure of education; fix it there. You can tackle more than one thing at a time. Improving the education system doesn't necessarily help older generations, for example.
- prepend 4y ago
  The education system shouldn’t only serve children and is part of a lifelong process. My community has many education and training programs for people of all ages. Even ones targeted at helping retirement age seniors read. I don’t think it’s a good idea to incorrectly assume that the education system only serves kids.
  - richbell 4y ago
    > The education system shouldn’t only serve children and is part of a lifelong process. I agree. Unfortunately, in many places it barely serves children, let alone the rest of the community. But this is tangential to my original point, which is that reasonable accommodations are good and that you can improve accessibility and education at the same time.

prepend 4y ago

What about non-deaf people who can’t read? How do they experience the site? Isn’t accessibility important for non-readers? I would expect there are more illiterate people who can hear than dead people who are illiterate. Either way, it seems like the best way for the site to accommodate visitors is to use accessibility features so their written content can be used by screen readers for the sight impaired but also sign language displayers for people who prefer sign language and text to speech for people who can’t read but can hear. I don’t think accessibility should be binary for one or the other but dedicating resources to visual sign language seems like a luxury that most sites can’t afford.

richbell 4y ago
> Either way, it seems like the best way for the site to accommodate visitors is to use accessibility features so their written content can be used by screen readers for the sight impaired but also sign language displayers for people who prefer sign language and text to speech for people who can’t read but can hear. While the implementation could definitely be improved, I can't fault them for trying. Perhaps stuff like this will be streamlined in the next decade. > I don’t think accessibility should be binary for one or the other but dedicating resources to visual sign language seems like a luxury that most sites can’t afford. You could make the same argument about making sites compatible with screen readers — and many do. At the end of the day, I think it's reasonable for government services to be held to a higher standard of accessibility.
- prepend 4y ago
  In the US there is a standard in the ADA called section 508 that specifies what is required. I can fault them for trying if their failure makes it harder for people to access the site. At the end of the day there’s a fixed dev budget and if it’s spent on one thing and misses other important things that’s bad. It is nice that they have good intentions and it’s better than nothing. But they should be faulted so they can correct the fault and do better next time.
  - richbell 4y ago