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Then it's probably not the place for you, or people with thin skin that don't want to deal with that kind of tone/communication. If they lose out on talent beca

by zo1 4y ago

Then it's probably not the place for you, or people with thin skin that don't want to deal with that kind of tone/communication. If they lose out on talent because of it, that's their loss. Not every project has to be perfect and all-inclusive to the entire world of developers, and I'm okay with that.

mynameisvlad 4y ago
It’s crazy to think that advocating for reasonable, non-toxic people to work with receives this kind response. Inclusivity and non-hostile work environments should not be considered “perfect” and “all-inclusive”. They should be basic. The default. The lowest bar possible.
- mid-kid 4y ago
  Just as many people have problems with this form of communication, many people find it hard to clearly express themselves in an environment where they're expected to put people's feelings above all else. What some might perceive as "hostile", others would simply call "honest". It's simply a matter of preference.
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    No, it’s not “simply a matter of preference” when it causes someone else to be in a hostile work environment. At that point, you’re affecting the lives of those around you. Sure, some people have medical conditions that might prevent them from seeing this, but even they put in an effort to be better. It stops being a “preference” when it actively hurts those around you. If you are an asshole, are known to be an asshole, have no intention of changing that, and are working with others… maybe don’t. You’re free to work alone, but why make people around you miserable by having to deal with you? Go be an asshole to yourself and let everyone else work together. It’s shocking that advocating for safe and inclusive work environments is such a controversial topic. If he were any other person, his behavior would be quashed in a second.
    - LunaSea 4y ago
      Aren't other people joining his project in this case?
      - mynameisvlad 4y ago
        Would it make it more ok if people were? How many people are joining? How many people are joining because or in lieu of Linus? How many people are joining just because it’s Linux/Git/whatever (although granted that is in part due to Linus making them such big things)? How many people would have joined/wouldn’t have left if he wasn’t there?
        LunaSea 4y ago
        That doesn't matter. It is his project and people are free ton join or start their own.
        mynameisvlad 4y ago
        Of course it matters. There are many reasons why people might join one of his projects, many of which don’t involve him but instead the project itself. His presence might have stifled or grown involvement in those projects.
        LunaSea 4y ago
        And that is completely fine. People don't have a universal right to collaborate to this project, especially on their own terms. In the same way, these projects will like you said, evolve in positive or negative ways with no God given right to exist and thrive.
    - throw827474737 4y ago
      > It’s shocking that advocating for safe and inclusive work environments is such a controversial topic. If he were any other person, his behavior would be quashed in a second. It is not, because that is exactly the problem.. whats your view of safe and inclusive is to some hostile and exclusive.. and until people realize that this extreme creates similar well-behaved assholes: nevermind.
  - nickm12 4y ago
    The choice between condescension to your collaborators and putting people's feeling "above all else" is a false dichotomy. You can disagree on technical merits without making it personal and calling your collaborators kindergarteners who believe in Santa Claus.
- ectopod 4y ago
  Which is worse? a) Having poor communication skills. b) Describing people as toxic.
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    If the shoe fits. Do you have any actual counter points or were you planning on beating that ad hominem to death?
  - ajkjk 4y ago
    Well the latter isn't a bad thing so the former, I guess?
  - krater23 4y ago
    b
- aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
  >work environments It’s not a “work environment”. You can’t report Linus to HR. If you have a problem with him, you can fork the kernel and convince others to follow you. Then you’ll have a mailing list where you can ban Linus for his style. Good luck!
  - mynameisvlad 4y ago
    Yes because if he were at any company, he’d have been fired. Decades ago. Just because it’s not an official “work environment” per your definition does not mean it isn’t hostile or intolerable were it actually one. But actually countering that point is a lot harder, isn’t it?
    - krater23 4y ago
      Ok, it's intolerable for you how he communicates on the Linux Kernel Mailing List. Are you anyway subscribed to the LKML? Are you kernel developer? Are you developer anyway? Who you are that you want to tell a community how they have to communicate? Why your opinion should matter for this community?
    - throw827474737 4y ago
      > Yes because if he were at any company, he’d have been fired. Decades ago. That's a pretty intolerable outright hostile and exclusive judgement :(
    - _dain_ 4y ago
      > Yes because if he were at any company, he’d have been fired. Decades ago. And then there would be no Linux kernel. So much for companies.
    - aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
      >does not mean it isn’t hostile or intolerable were it actually one It feels hostile and intolerable to you. There are many people who find the risk-averse non-confrontational corpspeak intolerable.
- zo1 4y ago
  I am a nice person and consider myself fair to everyone I work with, everyone gets a fair shot and a clean slate with me. But having to jump through verbal hoops to make my interactions "inclusive" and what these people would call non-hostile is downright hellish for me and way more effort than I think is reasonable. It's not inclusive towards me and is downright hostile towards me.
- throw827474737 4y ago
  Nope, imo this extreme also excludes many average folks are not so overly poliically correct. I have the feeling we have overshot peak inclusion and are excluding the not so well behaved folks (or simple people who have other problems, or who want to play these games). Personally I find that Linus here not toxic at all, at most a borderline strong opinion, but come on, as well as we all need to be more empathic, we should also be able to take some harsher critique and make not such a toxicity thing out of an more open and direct opinionated response...
- zozbot234 4y ago
  So an "inclusive" and "non-toxic work environment" should put fantasy above reality? There's nothing inherently toxic in Linus' message; he's making a technical point about how kernel code should be designed, to deal effectively with the sometimes complex and challenging reality of low-level systems.
  - nickm12 4y ago
    He is implying that his collaborators are kindergarteners who believe in Santa Claus. It's insulting.
    - zozbot234 4y ago
      He's doing no such thing. He's saying "surely you're well past kindergarten and don't believe in Santa Claus, so why would you ever believe this?" It's a valid argument.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  You're correct, it should be the default. But why are you complaining that a group of people who don't want to work in your default environment went off and created their own? I don't understand what you have to complain about: they have their way of working and you want to change that because it offends you? Sounds like you're the problem, not them.
  - V_Terranova_Jr 4y ago
    Sounds like he's calling them out on an internet forum that they are also free to ignore. Doesn't sound like he's the problem.
    - lelanthran 4y ago
      > Sounds like he's calling them out on an internet forum that they are also free to ignore. Doesn't sound like he's the problem. Well, I don't go around pointing out how random groups, formed by like-minded people voluntarily, are doing collaboration "wrong". If I did, on some random internet forum, complain that the local Street Rod Enthusiasts Club[1] doesn't do proper agendas for their meetings, or that a book-reading club[1] that I know off isn't properly structured, or that the volunteer SPCA group is using the wrong IM/Chat software to communicate .. well, then I'm the problem. [1] That I have no intention of joining
- niscocity35 4y ago
  Are you calling Linus unreasonable and toxic?
V_Terranova_Jr 4y ago
It's a false dichotomy to say you either have to be "all-inclusive to the entire world of developers" or you should applaud project leaders throwing out useless condescending rants with no real technical content like: And the *reality* is that there are no absolute guarantees. Ever. The "Rust is safe" is not some kind of absolute guarantee of code safety. Never has been. Anybody who believes that should probably re-take their kindergarten year, and stop believing in the Easter bunny and Santa Claus. What's going on here is not "woke people" trying to protect every little snowflake's feelings, rather it's noting the ranter is making himself feel good at others' expense with no other value added. His rants are completely superfluous to the substantive technical dialogue.

by zo1 4y ago

mynameisvlad 4y ago

It’s crazy to think that advocating for reasonable, non-toxic people to work with receives this kind response. Inclusivity and non-hostile work environments should not be considered “perfect” and “all-inclusive”. They should be basic. The default. The lowest bar possible.

mid-kid 4y ago
Just as many people have problems with this form of communication, many people find it hard to clearly express themselves in an environment where they're expected to put people's feelings above all else. What some might perceive as "hostile", others would simply call "honest". It's simply a matter of preference.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  No, it’s not “simply a matter of preference” when it causes someone else to be in a hostile work environment. At that point, you’re affecting the lives of those around you. Sure, some people have medical conditions that might prevent them from seeing this, but even they put in an effort to be better. It stops being a “preference” when it actively hurts those around you. If you are an asshole, are known to be an asshole, have no intention of changing that, and are working with others… maybe don’t. You’re free to work alone, but why make people around you miserable by having to deal with you? Go be an asshole to yourself and let everyone else work together. It’s shocking that advocating for safe and inclusive work environments is such a controversial topic. If he were any other person, his behavior would be quashed in a second.
  - LunaSea 4y ago
    Aren't other people joining his project in this case?
    - mynameisvlad 4y ago
      Would it make it more ok if people were? How many people are joining? How many people are joining because or in lieu of Linus? How many people are joining just because it’s Linux/Git/whatever (although granted that is in part due to Linus making them such big things)? How many people would have joined/wouldn’t have left if he wasn’t there?
      - LunaSea 4y ago
        That doesn't matter. It is his project and people are free ton join or start their own.
        mynameisvlad 4y ago
        Of course it matters. There are many reasons why people might join one of his projects, many of which don’t involve him but instead the project itself. His presence might have stifled or grown involvement in those projects.
        LunaSea 4y ago
        And that is completely fine. People don't have a universal right to collaborate to this project, especially on their own terms. In the same way, these projects will like you said, evolve in positive or negative ways with no God given right to exist and thrive.
  - throw827474737 4y ago
    > It’s shocking that advocating for safe and inclusive work environments is such a controversial topic. If he were any other person, his behavior would be quashed in a second. It is not, because that is exactly the problem.. whats your view of safe and inclusive is to some hostile and exclusive.. and until people realize that this extreme creates similar well-behaved assholes: nevermind.
- nickm12 4y ago
  The choice between condescension to your collaborators and putting people's feeling "above all else" is a false dichotomy. You can disagree on technical merits without making it personal and calling your collaborators kindergarteners who believe in Santa Claus.
ectopod 4y ago
Which is worse? a) Having poor communication skills. b) Describing people as toxic.
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  If the shoe fits. Do you have any actual counter points or were you planning on beating that ad hominem to death?
- ajkjk 4y ago
  Well the latter isn't a bad thing so the former, I guess?
- krater23 4y ago
  b
aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
>work environments It’s not a “work environment”. You can’t report Linus to HR. If you have a problem with him, you can fork the kernel and convince others to follow you. Then you’ll have a mailing list where you can ban Linus for his style. Good luck!
- mynameisvlad 4y ago
  Yes because if he were at any company, he’d have been fired. Decades ago. Just because it’s not an official “work environment” per your definition does not mean it isn’t hostile or intolerable were it actually one. But actually countering that point is a lot harder, isn’t it?
  - krater23 4y ago
    Ok, it's intolerable for you how he communicates on the Linux Kernel Mailing List. Are you anyway subscribed to the LKML? Are you kernel developer? Are you developer anyway? Who you are that you want to tell a community how they have to communicate? Why your opinion should matter for this community?
  - throw827474737 4y ago
    > Yes because if he were at any company, he’d have been fired. Decades ago. That's a pretty intolerable outright hostile and exclusive judgement :(
  - _dain_ 4y ago
    > Yes because if he were at any company, he’d have been fired. Decades ago. And then there would be no Linux kernel. So much for companies.
  - aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
    >does not mean it isn’t hostile or intolerable were it actually one It feels hostile and intolerable to you. There are many people who find the risk-averse non-confrontational corpspeak intolerable.
zo1 4y ago
I am a nice person and consider myself fair to everyone I work with, everyone gets a fair shot and a clean slate with me. But having to jump through verbal hoops to make my interactions "inclusive" and what these people would call non-hostile is downright hellish for me and way more effort than I think is reasonable. It's not inclusive towards me and is downright hostile towards me.
throw827474737 4y ago
Nope, imo this extreme also excludes many average folks are not so overly poliically correct. I have the feeling we have overshot peak inclusion and are excluding the not so well behaved folks (or simple people who have other problems, or who want to play these games). Personally I find that Linus here not toxic at all, at most a borderline strong opinion, but come on, as well as we all need to be more empathic, we should also be able to take some harsher critique and make not such a toxicity thing out of an more open and direct opinionated response...
zozbot234 4y ago
So an "inclusive" and "non-toxic work environment" should put fantasy above reality? There's nothing inherently toxic in Linus' message; he's making a technical point about how kernel code should be designed, to deal effectively with the sometimes complex and challenging reality of low-level systems.
- nickm12 4y ago
  He is implying that his collaborators are kindergarteners who believe in Santa Claus. It's insulting.
  - zozbot234 4y ago
    He's doing no such thing. He's saying "surely you're well past kindergarten and don't believe in Santa Claus, so why would you ever believe this?" It's a valid argument.
lelanthran 4y ago
You're correct, it should be the default. But why are you complaining that a group of people who don't want to work in your default environment went off and created their own? I don't understand what you have to complain about: they have their way of working and you want to change that because it offends you? Sounds like you're the problem, not them.
- V_Terranova_Jr 4y ago
  Sounds like he's calling them out on an internet forum that they are also free to ignore. Doesn't sound like he's the problem.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > Sounds like he's calling them out on an internet forum that they are also free to ignore. Doesn't sound like he's the problem. Well, I don't go around pointing out how random groups, formed by like-minded people voluntarily, are doing collaboration "wrong". If I did, on some random internet forum, complain that the local Street Rod Enthusiasts Club[1] doesn't do proper agendas for their meetings, or that a book-reading club[1] that I know off isn't properly structured, or that the volunteer SPCA group is using the wrong IM/Chat software to communicate .. well, then I'm the problem. [1] That I have no intention of joining
niscocity35 4y ago
Are you calling Linus unreasonable and toxic?

V_Terranova_Jr 4y ago

It's a false dichotomy to say you either have to be "all-inclusive to the entire world of developers" or you should applaud project leaders throwing out useless condescending rants with no real technical content like: And the *reality* is that there are no absolute guarantees. Ever. The "Rust is safe" is not some kind of absolute guarantee of code safety. Never has been. Anybody who believes that should probably re-take their kindergarten year, and stop believing in the Easter bunny and Santa Claus. What's going on here is not "woke people" trying to protect every little snowflake's feelings, rather it's noting the ranter is making himself feel good at others' expense with no other value added. His rants are completely superfluous to the substantive technical dialogue.