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Classic Linus. From the closing paragraph, I feel like he’s under the impression that Rust-advocating contributors are putting Rust’s interests (e.g. “legitimi

Classic Linus. From the closing paragraph, I feel like he’s under the impression that Rust-advocating contributors are putting Rust’s interests (e.g. “legitimizing it” by getting it in the kernel) above the kernel itself.

aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago
Is he wrong?
- bitexploder 4y ago
  Does it even matter? Rust does what it does and it was enough of a benefit to include in the kernel. It is a big accomplishment.
- kweingar 4y ago
  Regardless of whether he’s right or wrong, I think that this is somewhat natural and is to be expected. Like with any emerging technology, early adopters become advocates because they’re convinced of the technology’s superiority. Once they organize into a community and get to know each other personally, then at least some of the motivation shifts: you want to see your friends succeed, you want to be part of a community that is making change, you want your early adoption to be “validated” by mainstream success, etc. This can cloud technical judgment (not saying this is happening here, but if it were, it wouldn’t be surprising)
sidlls 4y ago
They probably are, in many cases. Rust’s community, in aggregate, have developed a reputation (earned, in my opinion). It’s too bad that the community don’t follow the leaders’ example in this regard. There are some quality, level-headed Rust advocates. They appear to be the minority.
- mustache_kimono 4y ago
  At least they don't go around slandering programming language communities. If we're going to be serious about who is being toxic, it's definitely Linus in this thread. Guy makes first mistake (by a very broad interpretation of "mistake". Perhaps "misunderstanding"?). Linus goes nuclear. And while his reasoning is sound, his argumentation cycles between threats, bad-faith arguments, and just plain old yelling. What some people don't understand is that the Linux kernel isn't 'led' in any meaningful sense. But I suppose some projects don't need actual leadership? I once was recommended a Metallica documentary, because "It's amusing to see what emotionally stunted 40-50 year olds who have never had anyone tell them 'No' since 18 will do." That's the Linus vibe -- somehow we've limped along to here. Seriously, read the rust/rust-lang issues/RFCs. Those people sound like grownups contrasted to this.
  - h2odragon 4y ago
    Threats? Slander? Do you feel that you're "speaking for a community" here?
    - mustache_kimono 4y ago
      Heck no! And I can't imagine anyone thinking I was? The threat is pretty clear? "If Rust people don't get this, we will have to part ways." This is an ultimatum? It's crazy girlfriend/boyfriend material? It's ridiculous after one contributor tries something that Linus thinks won't work in the kernel. Ridiculous. Just say no. The slander as well? "Rust’s community, in aggregate, have developed a reputation." And you know what? The C/C++/Zig/Nim/Haskell/Clojure communities have developed a reputation too, but, gosh, I don't talk about it because I know labeling groups isn't helpful/is completely non-technical.
      - sidlls 4y ago
        The difference is these communities don’t have advocates spamming every technical thing they can find crapping on everyone else and proclaiming their favored language/tech to be indisputably superior in every case.
- mlindner 4y ago
  Oh please. Stop smearing Wedson all over the map.
magicalhippo 4y ago
> I feel like he’s under the impression that Rust-advocating contributors are putting Rust’s interests (e.g. “legitimizing it” by getting it in the kernel) above the kernel itself. I mean the post Linus initially responded to did contain[1] a patch removing a kernel define, asking if anyone had any objections over removing that define, just to make the resulting Rust code a little nicer looking. [1]: https://lkml.org/lkml/2022/9/19/640 https://lkml.org/lkml/2022/9/19/640
lbhdc 4y ago
I was under the impression that was the reason for the push.
mlindner 4y ago
You're completely wrong here. There is no push to "legitimize" Rust by getting it into the kernel. A lot of people want to actively write drivers for Linux without having to use C to do it. Trying to tweak the kernel to make integration easier in a supposed non-harmful way doesn't harm anything.
- yencabulator 4y ago
  Linus is specifically saying the proposed "tweak" is not desirable.

aaaaaaaaaaab 4y ago

Is he wrong?

bitexploder 4y ago
Does it even matter? Rust does what it does and it was enough of a benefit to include in the kernel. It is a big accomplishment.
kweingar 4y ago
Regardless of whether he’s right or wrong, I think that this is somewhat natural and is to be expected. Like with any emerging technology, early adopters become advocates because they’re convinced of the technology’s superiority. Once they organize into a community and get to know each other personally, then at least some of the motivation shifts: you want to see your friends succeed, you want to be part of a community that is making change, you want your early adoption to be “validated” by mainstream success, etc. This can cloud technical judgment (not saying this is happening here, but if it were, it wouldn’t be surprising)

sidlls 4y ago

They probably are, in many cases. Rust’s community, in aggregate, have developed a reputation (earned, in my opinion). It’s too bad that the community don’t follow the leaders’ example in this regard. There are some quality, level-headed Rust advocates. They appear to be the minority.

mustache_kimono 4y ago
At least they don't go around slandering programming language communities. If we're going to be serious about who is being toxic, it's definitely Linus in this thread. Guy makes first mistake (by a very broad interpretation of "mistake". Perhaps "misunderstanding"?). Linus goes nuclear. And while his reasoning is sound, his argumentation cycles between threats, bad-faith arguments, and just plain old yelling. What some people don't understand is that the Linux kernel isn't 'led' in any meaningful sense. But I suppose some projects don't need actual leadership? I once was recommended a Metallica documentary, because "It's amusing to see what emotionally stunted 40-50 year olds who have never had anyone tell them 'No' since 18 will do." That's the Linus vibe -- somehow we've limped along to here. Seriously, read the rust/rust-lang issues/RFCs. Those people sound like grownups contrasted to this.
- h2odragon 4y ago
  Threats? Slander? Do you feel that you're "speaking for a community" here?
  - mustache_kimono 4y ago
    Heck no! And I can't imagine anyone thinking I was? The threat is pretty clear? "If Rust people don't get this, we will have to part ways." This is an ultimatum? It's crazy girlfriend/boyfriend material? It's ridiculous after one contributor tries something that Linus thinks won't work in the kernel. Ridiculous. Just say no. The slander as well? "Rust’s community, in aggregate, have developed a reputation." And you know what? The C/C++/Zig/Nim/Haskell/Clojure communities have developed a reputation too, but, gosh, I don't talk about it because I know labeling groups isn't helpful/is completely non-technical.
    - sidlls 4y ago
      The difference is these communities don’t have advocates spamming every technical thing they can find crapping on everyone else and proclaiming their favored language/tech to be indisputably superior in every case.
mlindner 4y ago
Oh please. Stop smearing Wedson all over the map.

magicalhippo 4y ago

> I feel like he’s under the impression that Rust-advocating contributors are putting Rust’s interests (e.g. “legitimizing it” by getting it in the kernel) above the kernel itself. I mean the post Linus initially responded to did contain[1] a patch removing a kernel define, asking if anyone had any objections over removing that define, just to make the resulting Rust code a little nicer looking. [1]: https://lkml.org/lkml/2022/9/19/640 https://lkml.org/lkml/2022/9/19/640

lbhdc 4y ago

I was under the impression that was the reason for the push.

mlindner 4y ago

You're completely wrong here. There is no push to "legitimize" Rust by getting it into the kernel. A lot of people want to actively write drivers for Linux without having to use C to do it. Trying to tweak the kernel to make integration easier in a supposed non-harmful way doesn't harm anything.

yencabulator 4y ago
Linus is specifically saying the proposed "tweak" is not desirable.