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I am the only one who would have a hard time to collaborate on a project where the "collaborators" start their message with > You need to realize that > (a) r
by rat9988 4y ago
I am the only one who would have a hard time to collaborate on a project where the "collaborators" start their message with
> You need to realize that
> (a) reality trumps fantasy
?
- detaro 4y ago> I am the only one [...] ? Have you missed the years and years of people criticizing Linus for his communication style?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Ecco 4y agoYou’re of course not the only one. That being said, it’s probably not that big of a deal for most people: there are countless other open source kernels, but Linux is by far the most popular, including in number of contributors.
- pfortuny 4y agoLinus is not a “collaborator”. Sometimes you need to stress the difference betwen “my opinion” (as in “Kernel development requires greater safety standards”) and “facts” (“safety does not exist in software because it does not control the hardware aspect”).
- SanjayMehta 4y agoYou need to realise that (a) that's the creator of Linux (b) see (a) above
- mynameisvlad 4y agoThat shouldn’t excuse him from being a reasonably decent person to work with. He gets a lot more leeway than being the creator of Linux should afford someone.
- SanjayMehta 4y agoUnreasonable people build things. Reasonable people run meetings.
- mynameisvlad 4y agoReasonable people also build things. Unreasonable people also build things alone where everyone else doesn’t have to deal with them. The world is hardly as black and white as you make it seem.
- SanjayMehta 4y agoThere are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y agoCan you imagine seriously making the claim that Linus built Linux alone.
- mynameisvlad 4y agoWho made that claim? I certainly didn’t. Just as the parent comment generalized about the two kinds of people out there, I added other examples of generalizations about people. But that’s all they are, generalizations. Not specific examples.
- KerrAvon 4y agoI have no opinion on Linus’s behavior here, but that is both false and toxic. Steve Jobs only became truly effective when he learned to be reasonable in appropriate contexts. People who remain unreasonable all of the time crater their companies in the long run. Every time.
- SanjayMehta 4y agoLooks like I've annoyed the "reasonable" people with this comment. Interesting.
- mynameisvlad 4y agoThis is also the “toned down” version of Linus. If he were any other person, he’d have been axed a long time ago for this behavior. I don’t understand how people put up with this kind of toxicity, even from him.
- blueflow 4y agoI bear this because in my opinion, software development has insufficient regulation and standards. I've seen enough bad software that im glad that someone is enforcing some standards regarding worst-case behavior, because this is something that is neglected too often. Its a bit sad that Linus needs to replicate individually what other engineering disciplines are mandated to by regulations. Look at car, train or aviation safety, they are decades ahead.
- V_Terranova_Jr 4y agoIt's really more about rigor and the actual practice of engineering (e.g., tracking requirements and verification of implementation against these requirements, verifying systems & subsystems meet correctness invariants, etc.) moreso than regulation. Most software development is craftsmanship, including the Linux kernel. It's certainly possible to practice software development as engineering, but it's not common. Source: aerospace engineer with a flight sciences background, and also software reviewer for flight systems.
- zo1 4y agoThen it's probably not the place for you, or people with thin skin that don't want to deal with that kind of tone/communication. If they lose out on talent because of it, that's their loss. Not every project has to be perfect and all-inclusive to the entire world of developers, and I'm okay with that.
- mynameisvlad 4y agoIt’s crazy to think that advocating for reasonable, non-toxic people to work with receives this kind response. Inclusivity and non-hostile work environments should not be considered “perfect” and “all-inclusive”. They should be basic. The default. The lowest bar possible.
- mid-kid 4y agoJust as many people have problems with this form of communication, many people find it hard to clearly express themselves in an environment where they're expected to put people's feelings above all else. What some might perceive as "hostile", others would simply call "honest". It's simply a matter of preference.
- mynameisvlad 4y agoNo, it’s not “simply a matter of preference” when it causes someone else to be in a hostile work environment. At that point, you’re affecting the lives of those around you. Sure, some people have medical conditions that might prevent them from seeing this, but even they put in an effort to be better. It stops being a “preference” when it actively hurts those around you. If you are an asshole, are known to be an asshole, have no intention of changing that, and are working with others… maybe don’t. You’re free to work alone, but why make people around you miserable by having to deal with you? Go be an asshole to yourself and let everyone else work together. It’s shocking that advocating for safe and inclusive work environments is such a controversial topic. If he were any other person, his behavior would be quashed in a second.
- 4y ago
- pyb 4y agoIt used to be way worse than that, but yes you're right.
- aaaaaaaaaaab 4y agoYou are free not to collaborate on the Linux kernel. That’s the beauty of free software!
- curt15 4y agoSeems pretty mild to me. Where is the personal attack?
- _dain_ 4y agoI'd prefer him to say this bluntly in five words rather than five hundred words of prevarication and passive aggression and doubletalk that amounts to the same thing, but that nominally adheres to some CoC speech code. I will go further: if you think what Linus said here is unreasonable or rude, you really need to get out more.
- mslm 4y agoDon't see what's wrong with it. He's leading one of the most high-profile and complex software system in the world with billions of users. If he was a softball all the time it'd be a mess. You have to be straightforward sometimes, or else people take too long to get the point.