3 ms·

> On the other hand, I feel like a system should be usable immediately with little effort if it is to be enjoyed and properly useful. Not all distros have to b

> On the other hand, I feel like a system should be usable immediately with little effort if it is to be enjoyed and properly useful. Not all distros have to be everything for everyone. It's OK to have a niche. If you want a distro that you can "just install" on any old bit of hardware that you have lying around, there are plenty of other distros out there that will do that already. I liked that Debian made you think about Freedom. If you wanted to use the "standard" installer and live up to Debian's Free Software ideals, as enshrined in Social Contract, you had to think about which companies made hardware that had Free drivers available, and make an effort to give your money to those that enabled that use-case. Or, burden of burdens!, you could spend a couple of extra minutes and a handful of clicks to track down the "unofficial" non-Free installer image. Seriously, it wasn't that hard. Yes, I know that the SC says that Debian's priorities are "our users, and Free Software" (but below "will remain 100% free"), but "our users" doesn't necessarily mean "all possible users". For those users that came to Debian primarily for the Freedom, I think this is a misstep. But, I don't determine which priorities and users are the most important to Debian, the membership does. And Debian is still one of the most committed to freedom distros out there, especially for its size. So, while this is not the choice that I would have made, now that it has been, I hope it makes Debian stronger going forwards.

Nextgrid 4y ago
However, Debian doesn't really warn prospective users about the real-world ramifications of its commitment to free software. It's one thing if the homepage had a big warning "this is for free software purists and you'll need to do a complex procedure if you want to run non-free firmware - if you're not ready for this, consider an easier distro like Ubuntu", but they don't. Technical people will understand or at least suspect these problems, but a novice user who wants to try Linux (they are non-technical and already don't fully understand the concept of distros - maybe someone once told them "try Debian" and so for them "Linux" is Debian), see a nice "Download" button on the homepage, try it out and then are left disgruntled not just by Debian but Linux in general when the thing doesn't work because their network card requires proprietary firmware, so they go back to Windows, running way more proprietary software than a firmware blob, and as a bonus they now have a negative opinion of "Linux". Having more users use some free software is better than those users giving up just so that some purists' ideological concerns be satisfied.
- Karellen 4y ago
  You think all Distros that do something different need big warnings on their home page to make sure novices who just want to try "Linux" don't get stuck? Like Guix, or GoboLinux? (OK, GoboLinux says it "redefines the entire filesystem hierarchy" - but it makes it sound like a good thing, not a warning.) You think that if someone tells a novice to "try Guix" or "try GoboLinux", and they get disgruntled with Linux in general that that's Guix's or GoboLinux's fault? Maybe Guix/Gobo should just go back to doing things the same way as everyone else? Or is Debian's problem that it's just too good (too big/too popular/too established) as a distro to have a niche like "being Free"? Maybe it should work on being less user-friendly and shrink the user-base in order to keep doing the Free thing without accidentally getting recommended to newbies and turning them away from "Linux"?
  - iudqnolq 4y ago
    > You think all Distros that do something different need big warnings on their home page to make sure novices who just want to try "Linux" don't get stuck? Pretty obviously, they think exactly that. I agree. What's the harm, unless you were planning on deception? More transparency to potential users is always good. Similarly, I try to be open about I'm not very experienced on my open source projects someone could conceivably rely on.
eptcyka 4y ago
> Or, burden of burdens!, you could spend a couple of extra minutes and a handful of clicks to track down the "unofficial" non-Free installer image. I only got to know about the unofficial installer on here, years after it could've been useful. At the time, I didn't have an extra machine to fetch the necessary binaries I needed to get networking working on my laptop. This was when I dropped Debian. I'd be perfectly fine with an installer that lets me have the choice, as long as it doesn't require me to reboot into a different OS to actually fetch the stuff I need. Just think of the man-hours wasted globally.

Nextgrid 4y ago

However, Debian doesn't really warn prospective users about the real-world ramifications of its commitment to free software. It's one thing if the homepage had a big warning "this is for free software purists and you'll need to do a complex procedure if you want to run non-free firmware - if you're not ready for this, consider an easier distro like Ubuntu", but they don't. Technical people will understand or at least suspect these problems, but a novice user who wants to try Linux (they are non-technical and already don't fully understand the concept of distros - maybe someone once told them "try Debian" and so for them "Linux" is Debian), see a nice "Download" button on the homepage, try it out and then are left disgruntled not just by Debian but Linux in general when the thing doesn't work because their network card requires proprietary firmware, so they go back to Windows, running way more proprietary software than a firmware blob, and as a bonus they now have a negative opinion of "Linux". Having more users use some free software is better than those users giving up just so that some purists' ideological concerns be satisfied.

Karellen 4y ago
You think all Distros that do something different need big warnings on their home page to make sure novices who just want to try "Linux" don't get stuck? Like Guix, or GoboLinux? (OK, GoboLinux says it "redefines the entire filesystem hierarchy" - but it makes it sound like a good thing, not a warning.) You think that if someone tells a novice to "try Guix" or "try GoboLinux", and they get disgruntled with Linux in general that that's Guix's or GoboLinux's fault? Maybe Guix/Gobo should just go back to doing things the same way as everyone else? Or is Debian's problem that it's just too good (too big/too popular/too established) as a distro to have a niche like "being Free"? Maybe it should work on being less user-friendly and shrink the user-base in order to keep doing the Free thing without accidentally getting recommended to newbies and turning them away from "Linux"?
- iudqnolq 4y ago
  > You think all Distros that do something different need big warnings on their home page to make sure novices who just want to try "Linux" don't get stuck? Pretty obviously, they think exactly that. I agree. What's the harm, unless you were planning on deception? More transparency to potential users is always good. Similarly, I try to be open about I'm not very experienced on my open source projects someone could conceivably rely on.

eptcyka 4y ago

> Or, burden of burdens!, you could spend a couple of extra minutes and a handful of clicks to track down the "unofficial" non-Free installer image. I only got to know about the unofficial installer on here, years after it could've been useful. At the time, I didn't have an extra machine to fetch the necessary binaries I needed to get networking working on my laptop. This was when I dropped Debian. I'd be perfectly fine with an installer that lets me have the choice, as long as it doesn't require me to reboot into a different OS to actually fetch the stuff I need. Just think of the man-hours wasted globally.