4 ms·

As I've argued before, if someone can diet and exercise then they aren't very depressed, so most of that advice is useless and why people work on drugs since ta

As I've argued before, if someone can diet and exercise then they aren't very depressed, so most of that advice is useless and why people work on drugs since taking a pill daily is much easier to accomplish for someone who can't get out of bed or find a reason to do anything at all.

Silverback_VII 4y ago
Magnesium, zinc and fish oil supplements don't seem very hard to take. And what about a cold shower of 2 min each day? also easy to implement without much effort if one is willing to suffer a little bit.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > Magnesium, zinc and fish oil supplements don't seem very hard to take. Obviously people do that and it works for a handful, but rather ineffective in general. > willing to suffer a little bit. Yeah, no. That's definitely not something a seriously depressed person can do, I say as someone doing that now. People who suggest these things are completely out of touch with what depression means. You'd be lucky if they were taking shows at all.
  - Silverback_VII 4y ago
    >but rather ineffective in general. Study with 22 people with major depression: "Treatment with both omega-3s was associated with a significant improvement in depression, with an average 64% drop in symptoms for the EPA group and 71% in the DHA group." https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20210618/fish-oil-supplements-may-help-fight-depression#:~:text=Byproducts%20of%20EPA%20and%20DHA,71%25%20in%20the%20DHA%20group https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20210618/fish-oil-supp....
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      > Study with 22 people i.e. worthless. DHA is being studied and has massive effects on inflammation but the science is definitely not there for depression. You need to adjust your epistemology if you are making decisions based on tiny studies like that.
      - hallway_monitor 4y ago
        Seems like 22 subjects is better than zero. One is better than zero so if it worked for one person that's probably worth trying for a second. I hate how people act like you can't try anything until it has had a study with thousands of people over years. Sure, that increases confidence but in most cases the study doesn't invent a treatment, it just adds trust in the effectiveness.
        guerrilla 4y ago
        No, that's not how it works at all or else we should also recommend fairy crystals at the same time. Anyway, people do try it. That's the point. It's common practice and it's known to not work for most people with severe depression. It's only a matter of time that we have strong meta-meta studies showing that definitively. For now, here's a Cochrane meta-study that reviews 35 studies [1]. 1. https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD004692.pub5/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...
      - Silverback_VII 4y ago
        >i.e. worthless Certainly not and considering the almost non-existent side effects, it is at least worth a try since it looks very promising. You are right that it is a tiny study but it doesn't mean that it has no value. I have to say that I know people like you very well, I almost can hear the "go see a therapist and take your meds" or better "don't try and certainly don't think you can solve this on your own". A positive force first and foremost acknowledge people's potential and doesn't put roadblocks everywhere.
- astrange 4y ago
  The first two are hard to take. Almost all magnesium formulations don’t do anything, and they’ll mostly sell you those because they’re cheaper. If you take the wrong zinc brand it gives you the worst nausea of your life. Although I haven’t heard of even good ones helping with depression - it is a pretty strong aphrodisiac and testosterone booster, but that’d just be an additional distraction on top of being sad.
- c4ptnjack 4y ago
  Meta studies show those supplements in fact have little to no quantifiable impact on most people's depression out side of placebo
  - Silverback_VII 4y ago
    >no quantifiable impact on most people's depression "According to existing literature there is an inverse relation between magnesium and depression. " https://johs.com.sa/admin/public/uploads/187/46_pdf.pdf https://johs.com.sa/admin/public/uploads/187/46_pdf.pdf While you N=1000-reddit-teletubbises try to hold back humanity the N=1 change the world.
lm28469 4y ago
But that's the thing, a lot, if not the majority, of people getting prescribed these awful drugs aren't depressed, they just have a shitty life, a shitty job, no hygiene, no nutritional education, are going through a hard place, etc. Giving pills to these people is a crime
- guerrilla 4y ago
  Why do you think you know this? What do you base it on?
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  It's not your place to decide if the quality of life improvements others experience with medication are worth it or not. Sometimes life gives people circumstances that are hard to cope with, and sometimes medication helps them cope.
  - lm28469 4y ago
    > It's not your place to decide if the quality of life improvements others experience with medication are worth it or not It's our place as a society to ask questions and be very concerned about the fact that more and more people need medication to operate as normal human beings, especially when these medications are dangerous and/or addictive
- c4ptnjack 4y ago
  all of those things cause depression, leading to a nuerobiological effect needing the treatment
  - lm28469 4y ago
    You forget the part where the treatments can cause addiction, sexual disorders, suicides, emotional issues, cardiovascular diseases, &c. These things are prescribed way too easily to people who have tons of others ways to get out of their issues without relying on these potentially dangerous drugs. Medication definitely has a place, but the current trend of over prescription is very alarming. It's so much more complex than "take that pill and you'll be happy", in lots of countries these things are prescribed by general practitioners without any kind of mental or lifestyle evaluation. You just show up there: "hey I feel down and anxious" and boom you go home with 6 months of xanax. In my country (France), 25% of people consume antidepressant in any given year, 12% are regular users, several studies concluded that out of these 25%, only 1/3rd have signs of depression [0], I know it's the same thing in other EU countries, and apparently also in the US [1] [0] https://www.slate.fr/monde/76468/depression-medecins-prescrivent-trop-antidepresseurs https://www.slate.fr/monde/76468/depression-medecins-prescri... [1] https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/a-glut-of-antidepressants/?smid=tw-nytimes https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/1...

Silverback_VII 4y ago

Magnesium, zinc and fish oil supplements don't seem very hard to take. And what about a cold shower of 2 min each day? also easy to implement without much effort if one is willing to suffer a little bit.

guerrilla 4y ago
> Magnesium, zinc and fish oil supplements don't seem very hard to take. Obviously people do that and it works for a handful, but rather ineffective in general. > willing to suffer a little bit. Yeah, no. That's definitely not something a seriously depressed person can do, I say as someone doing that now. People who suggest these things are completely out of touch with what depression means. You'd be lucky if they were taking shows at all.
- Silverback_VII 4y ago
  >but rather ineffective in general. Study with 22 people with major depression: "Treatment with both omega-3s was associated with a significant improvement in depression, with an average 64% drop in symptoms for the EPA group and 71% in the DHA group." https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20210618/fish-oil-supplements-may-help-fight-depression#:~:text=Byproducts%20of%20EPA%20and%20DHA,71%25%20in%20the%20DHA%20group https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20210618/fish-oil-supp....
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    > Study with 22 people i.e. worthless. DHA is being studied and has massive effects on inflammation but the science is definitely not there for depression. You need to adjust your epistemology if you are making decisions based on tiny studies like that.
    - hallway_monitor 4y ago
      Seems like 22 subjects is better than zero. One is better than zero so if it worked for one person that's probably worth trying for a second. I hate how people act like you can't try anything until it has had a study with thousands of people over years. Sure, that increases confidence but in most cases the study doesn't invent a treatment, it just adds trust in the effectiveness.
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        No, that's not how it works at all or else we should also recommend fairy crystals at the same time. Anyway, people do try it. That's the point. It's common practice and it's known to not work for most people with severe depression. It's only a matter of time that we have strong meta-meta studies showing that definitively. For now, here's a Cochrane meta-study that reviews 35 studies [1]. 1. https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD004692.pub5/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...
    - Silverback_VII 4y ago
      >i.e. worthless Certainly not and considering the almost non-existent side effects, it is at least worth a try since it looks very promising. You are right that it is a tiny study but it doesn't mean that it has no value. I have to say that I know people like you very well, I almost can hear the "go see a therapist and take your meds" or better "don't try and certainly don't think you can solve this on your own". A positive force first and foremost acknowledge people's potential and doesn't put roadblocks everywhere.
astrange 4y ago
The first two are hard to take. Almost all magnesium formulations don’t do anything, and they’ll mostly sell you those because they’re cheaper. If you take the wrong zinc brand it gives you the worst nausea of your life. Although I haven’t heard of even good ones helping with depression - it is a pretty strong aphrodisiac and testosterone booster, but that’d just be an additional distraction on top of being sad.
c4ptnjack 4y ago
Meta studies show those supplements in fact have little to no quantifiable impact on most people's depression out side of placebo
- Silverback_VII 4y ago
  >no quantifiable impact on most people's depression "According to existing literature there is an inverse relation between magnesium and depression. " https://johs.com.sa/admin/public/uploads/187/46_pdf.pdf https://johs.com.sa/admin/public/uploads/187/46_pdf.pdf While you N=1000-reddit-teletubbises try to hold back humanity the N=1 change the world.

lm28469 4y ago

But that's the thing, a lot, if not the majority, of people getting prescribed these awful drugs aren't depressed, they just have a shitty life, a shitty job, no hygiene, no nutritional education, are going through a hard place, etc. Giving pills to these people is a crime

guerrilla 4y ago
Why do you think you know this? What do you base it on?
heavyset_go 4y ago
It's not your place to decide if the quality of life improvements others experience with medication are worth it or not. Sometimes life gives people circumstances that are hard to cope with, and sometimes medication helps them cope.
- lm28469 4y ago
  > It's not your place to decide if the quality of life improvements others experience with medication are worth it or not It's our place as a society to ask questions and be very concerned about the fact that more and more people need medication to operate as normal human beings, especially when these medications are dangerous and/or addictive
c4ptnjack 4y ago
all of those things cause depression, leading to a nuerobiological effect needing the treatment
- lm28469 4y ago
  You forget the part where the treatments can cause addiction, sexual disorders, suicides, emotional issues, cardiovascular diseases, &c. These things are prescribed way too easily to people who have tons of others ways to get out of their issues without relying on these potentially dangerous drugs. Medication definitely has a place, but the current trend of over prescription is very alarming. It's so much more complex than "take that pill and you'll be happy", in lots of countries these things are prescribed by general practitioners without any kind of mental or lifestyle evaluation. You just show up there: "hey I feel down and anxious" and boom you go home with 6 months of xanax. In my country (France), 25% of people consume antidepressant in any given year, 12% are regular users, several studies concluded that out of these 25%, only 1/3rd have signs of depression [0], I know it's the same thing in other EU countries, and apparently also in the US [1] [0] https://www.slate.fr/monde/76468/depression-medecins-prescrivent-trop-antidepresseurs https://www.slate.fr/monde/76468/depression-medecins-prescri... [1] https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/a-glut-of-antidepressants/?smid=tw-nytimes https://archive.nytimes.com/well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/1...