5 ms·

What about very cheap and nonetheless effective "treatments" like exercise,sleep hygiene, magnesium, zinc, fish oil, onion, galic, saffron and even simply eatin

What about very cheap and nonetheless effective "treatments" like exercise,sleep hygiene, magnesium, zinc, fish oil, onion, galic, saffron and even simply eating edible non psychoactive mushrooms? all these have been associated with a reduction in depressive symptoms. but obviously nobody can make a fortune with these simple advices.

6stringmerc 4y ago
This is true but it’s modeled after behaviors in the big picture - you just described a lot of effort and commitment versus taking a pill, maybe doing therapy / counseling once a week or two, and just living life. I’m getting back into fitness routine and it takes time, effort, and money that typically aren’t subsidized by the corporate gigs I’ve worked.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  > you just described a lot of effort and commitment versus taking a pill Funny but I have come to regard the "effort and commitment" as part of the recovery mechanism. Causal or concomitant, I have no idea, let's just say 'linked'. By the same token I have come to regard "convenience" as, if not a great evil, some kind of joker/trickster that lures us down a dark path.
- j-bos 4y ago
  This strikes me so much. Exercise is a proven health booster and yet health insurance doesn't cover gym memberships or exercise equipment. Why is that?
  - msgilligan 4y ago
    I’m not in the insurance industry and have no idea what the actual reason is. And I don’t know what the statistics are, but a significant percentage of people with gym memberships rarely go to the gym. I suspect the percentage of people with free (i.e. payed for by insurance) insurance who rarely go would be much higher.
    - msgilligan 4y ago
      Further thought: Maybe insurance companies could pay, reimburse, or reduce rates for those who can reliably prove they are exercising.
      - jan_Inkepa 4y ago
        My insurance offers reduction if you pass a basic health check each year. It's kinda nice but also sets up a slightly adversarial relationship with my doctor, which I don't like.
        jlokier 4y ago
        Ideally the health checks would be done with someone else, to reduce that adversarial conflict of interest problem. Maybe your doctor should even get a small reward each time you pass the basic health check, so that in aggregate they are better aligned with keeping people in shape for those checks.
      - heavyset_go 4y ago
        I've seen plans that subsidize gym memberships.
  - michaelmarkell 4y ago
    Treatments like exercise also have high variance - depending on the circumstance and how diligently you implement it, it may have no effect, a big effect, or even cause injury in the worst case. Insurance likes low variance outcomes because they’re easier to model accurately
  - parineum 4y ago
    >health insurance doesn't cover gym memberships or exercise equipment Because neither of those things are necessary to exercise. I bet if you asked your GP for some body weight exercises you could do at home he'd happily provide some for you and insurance would cover the visit.
guerrilla 4y ago
As I've argued before, if someone can diet and exercise then they aren't very depressed, so most of that advice is useless and why people work on drugs since taking a pill daily is much easier to accomplish for someone who can't get out of bed or find a reason to do anything at all.
- Silverback_VII 4y ago
  Magnesium, zinc and fish oil supplements don't seem very hard to take. And what about a cold shower of 2 min each day? also easy to implement without much effort if one is willing to suffer a little bit.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    > Magnesium, zinc and fish oil supplements don't seem very hard to take. Obviously people do that and it works for a handful, but rather ineffective in general. > willing to suffer a little bit. Yeah, no. That's definitely not something a seriously depressed person can do, I say as someone doing that now. People who suggest these things are completely out of touch with what depression means. You'd be lucky if they were taking shows at all.
    - Silverback_VII 4y ago
      >but rather ineffective in general. Study with 22 people with major depression: "Treatment with both omega-3s was associated with a significant improvement in depression, with an average 64% drop in symptoms for the EPA group and 71% in the DHA group." https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20210618/fish-oil-supplements-may-help-fight-depression#:~:text=Byproducts%20of%20EPA%20and%20DHA,71%25%20in%20the%20DHA%20group https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20210618/fish-oil-supp....
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        > Study with 22 people i.e. worthless. DHA is being studied and has massive effects on inflammation but the science is definitely not there for depression. You need to adjust your epistemology if you are making decisions based on tiny studies like that.
xen2xen1 4y ago
I'll take it in good faith you're not just being a nasty troll, but that's a LOT of work for someone who is depressed, enough to be a non-starter. In reality drugs should probably be seen as a way to start better life habits. The benefits of hose habits are real, but getting there is a lot.
okaram 4y ago
1. Most of those are not actual treatment, and the association is spurious. 2. Tons of depressed people are still depressed even though they exercise, eat well and sleep. 3. Tons of people are making fortunes peddling these and similar 'cures' to everything :)
BurningFrog 4y ago
Those things can often work, but the depressed mind is often 100% convinced that there is no way out. Nothing you do can make a difference. Intellectually you can agree that all those things are worth doing. But some deep calculating part of your mind will see that between hard work that will not help, and doing nothing which will also not help, the latter is the rational choice.

6stringmerc 4y ago

This is true but it’s modeled after behaviors in the big picture - you just described a lot of effort and commitment versus taking a pill, maybe doing therapy / counseling once a week or two, and just living life. I’m getting back into fitness routine and it takes time, effort, and money that typically aren’t subsidized by the corporate gigs I’ve worked.

nonrandomstring 4y ago
> you just described a lot of effort and commitment versus taking a pill Funny but I have come to regard the "effort and commitment" as part of the recovery mechanism. Causal or concomitant, I have no idea, let's just say 'linked'. By the same token I have come to regard "convenience" as, if not a great evil, some kind of joker/trickster that lures us down a dark path.
j-bos 4y ago
This strikes me so much. Exercise is a proven health booster and yet health insurance doesn't cover gym memberships or exercise equipment. Why is that?
- msgilligan 4y ago
  I’m not in the insurance industry and have no idea what the actual reason is. And I don’t know what the statistics are, but a significant percentage of people with gym memberships rarely go to the gym. I suspect the percentage of people with free (i.e. payed for by insurance) insurance who rarely go would be much higher.
  - msgilligan 4y ago
    Further thought: Maybe insurance companies could pay, reimburse, or reduce rates for those who can reliably prove they are exercising.
    - jan_Inkepa 4y ago
      My insurance offers reduction if you pass a basic health check each year. It's kinda nice but also sets up a slightly adversarial relationship with my doctor, which I don't like.
      - jlokier 4y ago
        Ideally the health checks would be done with someone else, to reduce that adversarial conflict of interest problem. Maybe your doctor should even get a small reward each time you pass the basic health check, so that in aggregate they are better aligned with keeping people in shape for those checks.
    - heavyset_go 4y ago
      I've seen plans that subsidize gym memberships.
- michaelmarkell 4y ago
  Treatments like exercise also have high variance - depending on the circumstance and how diligently you implement it, it may have no effect, a big effect, or even cause injury in the worst case. Insurance likes low variance outcomes because they’re easier to model accurately
- parineum 4y ago
  >health insurance doesn't cover gym memberships or exercise equipment Because neither of those things are necessary to exercise. I bet if you asked your GP for some body weight exercises you could do at home he'd happily provide some for you and insurance would cover the visit.

guerrilla 4y ago

As I've argued before, if someone can diet and exercise then they aren't very depressed, so most of that advice is useless and why people work on drugs since taking a pill daily is much easier to accomplish for someone who can't get out of bed or find a reason to do anything at all.

Silverback_VII 4y ago
Magnesium, zinc and fish oil supplements don't seem very hard to take. And what about a cold shower of 2 min each day? also easy to implement without much effort if one is willing to suffer a little bit.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > Magnesium, zinc and fish oil supplements don't seem very hard to take. Obviously people do that and it works for a handful, but rather ineffective in general. > willing to suffer a little bit. Yeah, no. That's definitely not something a seriously depressed person can do, I say as someone doing that now. People who suggest these things are completely out of touch with what depression means. You'd be lucky if they were taking shows at all.
  - Silverback_VII 4y ago
    >but rather ineffective in general. Study with 22 people with major depression: "Treatment with both omega-3s was associated with a significant improvement in depression, with an average 64% drop in symptoms for the EPA group and 71% in the DHA group." https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20210618/fish-oil-supplements-may-help-fight-depression#:~:text=Byproducts%20of%20EPA%20and%20DHA,71%25%20in%20the%20DHA%20group https://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20210618/fish-oil-supp....
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      > Study with 22 people i.e. worthless. DHA is being studied and has massive effects on inflammation but the science is definitely not there for depression. You need to adjust your epistemology if you are making decisions based on tiny studies like that.

xen2xen1 4y ago

I'll take it in good faith you're not just being a nasty troll, but that's a LOT of work for someone who is depressed, enough to be a non-starter. In reality drugs should probably be seen as a way to start better life habits. The benefits of hose habits are real, but getting there is a lot.

okaram 4y ago

1. Most of those are not actual treatment, and the association is spurious. 2. Tons of depressed people are still depressed even though they exercise, eat well and sleep. 3. Tons of people are making fortunes peddling these and similar 'cures' to everything :)

BurningFrog 4y ago

Those things can often work, but the depressed mind is often 100% convinced that there is no way out. Nothing you do can make a difference. Intellectually you can agree that all those things are worth doing. But some deep calculating part of your mind will see that between hard work that will not help, and doing nothing which will also not help, the latter is the rational choice.