4 ms·

No Bitcoin does not need to change its power consumption ways. It literally incentivises the build out of renewable energy. It will fix itself in time.

woeh 4y ago
How does Bitcoin have literal incentives to build out renewable energy? I've heard the claim before, but I'm not following. Doesn't Bitcoin mining just incentivize generating energy in general - green or otherwise? As a counterpoint: A recent study from Cambridge [0] estimates most of Bitcoins energy consumption still to be from fossil fuels. [0] https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/insight/2022/a-deep-dive-into-bitcoin's-environmental-impact/ https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/insight/2022/a-deep-dive-into-bitc...
- adammarples 4y ago
  One thing that I could say is that bitcoin mining can happen anywhere while typically energy has to be transported to population hubs. I'm not sure I agree that this fact has incentivised much renewables building.
- kevinak 4y ago
  It incentivises using the cheapest energy which is renewable. Bitcoin could even be greenhouse negative - just stick a mine on top of every landfill around and you have a recipe to get rid of methane gas. Or on oil fields where they accidentally run into gas pockets. Looks to me like GHG emissions are going down this year, from that report. I would expect that to continue going forward as more miners are deployed on top of cheap electricity sources :)
  - woeh 4y ago
    Isn't every energy consumer incentivized to use the cheapest available energy source? In case of a landfill, there probably is a city nearby which would benefit from cheap electricity. Perhaps miners have an advantage over a city in that they can move or disable mining rigs in times when renewables are scarce. But from what I understand Asics are expensive, and running them is big business. Which probably means they will continue running while it is financially feasible, even when a nearby dam runs dry or there is not enough wind or solar to go about.
    - acapybara 4y ago
      Not really. When there's a constant energy source like a flare, it must be used in realtime. Too much energy is even a problem for the grid (see negative electricity prices that have occurred in, e.g. China). The only alternative is batteries, which are expensive and have their own problems. May as well use that energy for securing a neutral public utility financial network/money system. By the way, check out how much energy the traditional financial systems use: - Data centers - Trucks/logistics - Security - Military (to secure national currencies such as USD) - etc.
      - woeh 4y ago
        I doubt Bitcoin mining is really suitable to use energy in realtime either. I don't think it makes financial sense to only run your expensive mining equipment during flares. In result the mining will run continuously, and just compete with other energy consumers. To be honest I know too little about mining costs to dispute this. The Cambridge article about BTC mining using mostly fossils supports my point though. Having said that, I hope you guys are right in Bitcoin mining making energy greener.
ngetchell 4y ago
I don't see the connection. Energy needs would be better iff without Bitcoin mining.
- kevinak 4y ago
  The connection is that miners seek the cheapest energy out there, which is renewables. Renewables (solar, wind) are highly variable in their output so to get stability you need to deploy A LOT of it (or couple it with for exmaple nuclear, hydro or fossil fuels). Bitcoin can act as a "buyer of last resort" for the producer, thus letting electricity producers build out larger deployments at a lower risk. Bitcoin mining has a whole host of pretty cool properties that help stabilize the grid as well. Here's a two part article about it: https://braiins.com/blog/bitcoin-mining-the-grid-generators https://braiins.com/blog/bitcoin-mining-the-grid-generators
MrMan 4y ago
this is such a blatantly untrue statement, made in good, faith steelmanning it, curiously
- kevinak 4y ago
  How come?
andirk 4y ago
No opinion here, but I think the idea is bitcoin seeks _cheap_ energy which encourages miners to use mass sources of solar/wind energy that are plentiful but in undesirable places like Arizona. Hence, one can conclude that miners are pro-renewables and will invest in their research. \_(ツ)_/¯

woeh 4y ago

How does Bitcoin have literal incentives to build out renewable energy? I've heard the claim before, but I'm not following. Doesn't Bitcoin mining just incentivize generating energy in general - green or otherwise? As a counterpoint: A recent study from Cambridge [0] estimates most of Bitcoins energy consumption still to be from fossil fuels. [0] https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/insight/2022/a-deep-dive-into-bitcoin's-environmental-impact/ https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/insight/2022/a-deep-dive-into-bitc...

adammarples 4y ago
One thing that I could say is that bitcoin mining can happen anywhere while typically energy has to be transported to population hubs. I'm not sure I agree that this fact has incentivised much renewables building.
kevinak 4y ago
It incentivises using the cheapest energy which is renewable. Bitcoin could even be greenhouse negative - just stick a mine on top of every landfill around and you have a recipe to get rid of methane gas. Or on oil fields where they accidentally run into gas pockets. Looks to me like GHG emissions are going down this year, from that report. I would expect that to continue going forward as more miners are deployed on top of cheap electricity sources :)
- woeh 4y ago
  Isn't every energy consumer incentivized to use the cheapest available energy source? In case of a landfill, there probably is a city nearby which would benefit from cheap electricity. Perhaps miners have an advantage over a city in that they can move or disable mining rigs in times when renewables are scarce. But from what I understand Asics are expensive, and running them is big business. Which probably means they will continue running while it is financially feasible, even when a nearby dam runs dry or there is not enough wind or solar to go about.
  - acapybara 4y ago
    Not really. When there's a constant energy source like a flare, it must be used in realtime. Too much energy is even a problem for the grid (see negative electricity prices that have occurred in, e.g. China). The only alternative is batteries, which are expensive and have their own problems. May as well use that energy for securing a neutral public utility financial network/money system. By the way, check out how much energy the traditional financial systems use: - Data centers - Trucks/logistics - Security - Military (to secure national currencies such as USD) - etc.
    - woeh 4y ago
      I doubt Bitcoin mining is really suitable to use energy in realtime either. I don't think it makes financial sense to only run your expensive mining equipment during flares. In result the mining will run continuously, and just compete with other energy consumers. To be honest I know too little about mining costs to dispute this. The Cambridge article about BTC mining using mostly fossils supports my point though. Having said that, I hope you guys are right in Bitcoin mining making energy greener.

ngetchell 4y ago

I don't see the connection. Energy needs would be better iff without Bitcoin mining.

kevinak 4y ago
The connection is that miners seek the cheapest energy out there, which is renewables. Renewables (solar, wind) are highly variable in their output so to get stability you need to deploy A LOT of it (or couple it with for exmaple nuclear, hydro or fossil fuels). Bitcoin can act as a "buyer of last resort" for the producer, thus letting electricity producers build out larger deployments at a lower risk. Bitcoin mining has a whole host of pretty cool properties that help stabilize the grid as well. Here's a two part article about it: https://braiins.com/blog/bitcoin-mining-the-grid-generators https://braiins.com/blog/bitcoin-mining-the-grid-generators

MrMan 4y ago

this is such a blatantly untrue statement, made in good, faith steelmanning it, curiously

kevinak 4y ago
How come?

andirk 4y ago

No opinion here, but I think the idea is bitcoin seeks _cheap_ energy which encourages miners to use mass sources of solar/wind energy that are plentiful but in undesirable places like Arizona. Hence, one can conclude that miners are pro-renewables and will invest in their research. \_(ツ)_/¯