5 ms·

OT but: > This is IMO embarrassing and unprofessional behavior for an adult. Most engineering managers or architects in most jobs would be reprimanded or fired

by LtWorf 4y ago

OT but: > This is IMO embarrassing and unprofessional behavior for an adult. Most engineering managers or architects in most jobs would be reprimanded or fired I don't understand why I keep hearing complaints about "professional behaviour" in an open source context, where it's most likely not the "profession" of the people involved. Please stop asking open source maintainers to behave professionally, until you are paying them a full time salary.

mgraczyk 4y ago
They can have this attitude, and so can you, but people like me will avoid working with you if you don't believe you should act professionally just because you're not getting paid.
- klqtur 4y ago
  These days, many of the people who pretend to act professionally are paid and do very little. Periodically, they usurp huge contributions from outsiders and market the success to their employers as a project success without mentioning the actual author. Then they boss around the author until he/she rage-quits. And while they were young, they were entirely rude and unprofessional. CoCs are a political tool to protect the inner circle. At least RMS is not a hypocrite. Neither is Torvalds.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  A professional is by definition someone who receives money for their work. Are you paying RMS for work rendered? If not, you have no standing to demand RMS act professionally. Not to mention, FOSS by its own definition excludes all facets of money and is in practice primarily driven by volunteers. You can't and shouldn't demand professional behaviour from people who are not professionals.
  - mgraczyk 4y ago
    I was not using the word "professionally" that way, it's a different definition that is not contingent on getting paid. “The skill, good judgment, and polite behavior that is expected from a person who is trained to do a job well” Merriam-Webster
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      Good job not actually quoting the definition (you even spelled Merriam-Webster wrong). https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional ("professionally" also redirects to the above URL.) --------------------------------- professional adjective pro· fes· sion· al | \ prə-ˈfesh-nəl , -ˈfe-shə-nᵊl \ Definition of professional (Entry 1 of 2) 1a: of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b: engaged in one of the learned professions c(1): characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2): exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace 2a: participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs a professional golfer b: having a particular profession as a permanent career a professional soldier c: engaged in by persons receiving financial return professional football 3: following a line of conduct as though it were a profession a professional patriot professional noun Definition of professional (Entry 2 of 2) : one that is professional especially : one that engages in a pursuit or activity professionally --------------------------------- The phrase you are looking for is perhaps "act like a gentleman", among many other ways to describe behaviour that is mature and reasonable, but in any case RMS is not a professional and thusly none of us can demand he act professionally.
      - mgraczyk 4y ago
        No, I'm using definition (2) from the ones you listed.
        Dalewyn 4y ago
        Definition 2 specifies "in the workplace". "workplace" is defined as "a place (such as a shop or factory) where work is done"[1]. "work" in the context of "workplace" is defined[2] as follows under definition 1: --------------------- 1a: to perform work or fulfill duties regularly for wages or salary works in publishing b: to perform or carry through a task requiring sustained effort or continuous repeated operations worked all day over a hot stove c: to exert oneself physically or mentally especially in sustained effort for a purpose or under compulsion or necessity --------------------- Definition 1a is a direct reference to monetary payment for work rendered. Definition 1b describes the act of working itself. Definition 1c loosely refers to some sort of goal or need, which may or may not include money, as a motivator for working. So in a very, very liberal context you can pedantically use "professional" in a non-monetary sense, but there are much more accurate ways to describe what you want to convey such that you wouldn't need to be liberal with your choice of words. RMS isn't a professional, so he can't be demanded to act professionally. [1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/workplace https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/workplace [2]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/work https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/work
  - Beltiras 4y ago
    This falls apart when viewed from the perspective of two FOSS collaborators. Neither is getting paid so both can act like privileged pricks?
    - Dalewyn 4y ago
      You can demand volunteers act like gentlemen, but you can't demand they act professionally because they are not professionals.
Joeri 4y ago
How about asking them to behave respectably. A maintainer takes up explicit and implicit responsibilities to their users. If they are unwilling or unable to discharge those responsibilities in a respectable (“professional”) manner they should let someone else take up that mantle who is willing and able. Money changing hands is not material to this question, as not all responsibilities need to involve the exchange of money. Just like we expect our neighbors to be respectful to us even when we don’t pay them for the privilege, there’s nothing surprising that users ask a maintainer to be respectful of their time. Yes, the users can go somewhere else, just like how we can move if we have a bad neighbor, but that’s just not a good way of going about things.
- LtWorf 4y ago
  > A maintainer takes up explicit and implicit responsibilities to their users. No, that's not how it works. I'm free to publish something and completely ignore bugreports. There is no such responsibility principle. Some people, out of goodness of their hearths, follow up on things. But they have no obligation to do so.
  - praptak 4y ago
    This is not about obligation to fix bug reports. It is about respectful communication, which is pretty orthogonal.
    - fellellor 4y ago
      I can just ghost you. The only obligatory relationship possible between us is either of blood or money. As a private individual, I don’t really owe you anything. You have the previlege of not having to use my work, or fork it and make it your own.
      - epse 4y ago
        You can and that's fine, but if you do reply and you're unnecessarily rude, I hope we can agree that's bad

by LtWorf 4y ago

mgraczyk 4y ago

They can have this attitude, and so can you, but people like me will avoid working with you if you don't believe you should act professionally just because you're not getting paid.

klqtur 4y ago
These days, many of the people who pretend to act professionally are paid and do very little. Periodically, they usurp huge contributions from outsiders and market the success to their employers as a project success without mentioning the actual author. Then they boss around the author until he/she rage-quits. And while they were young, they were entirely rude and unprofessional. CoCs are a political tool to protect the inner circle. At least RMS is not a hypocrite. Neither is Torvalds.
Dalewyn 4y ago
A professional is by definition someone who receives money for their work. Are you paying RMS for work rendered? If not, you have no standing to demand RMS act professionally. Not to mention, FOSS by its own definition excludes all facets of money and is in practice primarily driven by volunteers. You can't and shouldn't demand professional behaviour from people who are not professionals.
- mgraczyk 4y ago
  I was not using the word "professionally" that way, it's a different definition that is not contingent on getting paid. “The skill, good judgment, and polite behavior that is expected from a person who is trained to do a job well” Merriam-Webster
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    Good job not actually quoting the definition (you even spelled Merriam-Webster wrong). https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/professional ("professionally" also redirects to the above URL.) --------------------------------- professional adjective pro· fes· sion· al | \ prə-ˈfesh-nəl , -ˈfe-shə-nᵊl \ Definition of professional (Entry 1 of 2) 1a: of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b: engaged in one of the learned professions c(1): characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2): exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace 2a: participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs a professional golfer b: having a particular profession as a permanent career a professional soldier c: engaged in by persons receiving financial return professional football 3: following a line of conduct as though it were a profession a professional patriot professional noun Definition of professional (Entry 2 of 2) : one that is professional especially : one that engages in a pursuit or activity professionally --------------------------------- The phrase you are looking for is perhaps "act like a gentleman", among many other ways to describe behaviour that is mature and reasonable, but in any case RMS is not a professional and thusly none of us can demand he act professionally.
    - mgraczyk 4y ago
      No, I'm using definition (2) from the ones you listed.
      - Dalewyn 4y ago
        Definition 2 specifies "in the workplace". "workplace" is defined as "a place (such as a shop or factory) where work is done"[1]. "work" in the context of "workplace" is defined[2] as follows under definition 1: --------------------- 1a: to perform work or fulfill duties regularly for wages or salary works in publishing b: to perform or carry through a task requiring sustained effort or continuous repeated operations worked all day over a hot stove c: to exert oneself physically or mentally especially in sustained effort for a purpose or under compulsion or necessity --------------------- Definition 1a is a direct reference to monetary payment for work rendered. Definition 1b describes the act of working itself. Definition 1c loosely refers to some sort of goal or need, which may or may not include money, as a motivator for working. So in a very, very liberal context you can pedantically use "professional" in a non-monetary sense, but there are much more accurate ways to describe what you want to convey such that you wouldn't need to be liberal with your choice of words. RMS isn't a professional, so he can't be demanded to act professionally. [1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/workplace https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/workplace [2]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/work https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/work
- Beltiras 4y ago
  This falls apart when viewed from the perspective of two FOSS collaborators. Neither is getting paid so both can act like privileged pricks?
  - Dalewyn 4y ago
    You can demand volunteers act like gentlemen, but you can't demand they act professionally because they are not professionals.

Joeri 4y ago

How about asking them to behave respectably. A maintainer takes up explicit and implicit responsibilities to their users. If they are unwilling or unable to discharge those responsibilities in a respectable (“professional”) manner they should let someone else take up that mantle who is willing and able. Money changing hands is not material to this question, as not all responsibilities need to involve the exchange of money. Just like we expect our neighbors to be respectful to us even when we don’t pay them for the privilege, there’s nothing surprising that users ask a maintainer to be respectful of their time. Yes, the users can go somewhere else, just like how we can move if we have a bad neighbor, but that’s just not a good way of going about things.

LtWorf 4y ago
> A maintainer takes up explicit and implicit responsibilities to their users. No, that's not how it works. I'm free to publish something and completely ignore bugreports. There is no such responsibility principle. Some people, out of goodness of their hearths, follow up on things. But they have no obligation to do so.
- praptak 4y ago
  This is not about obligation to fix bug reports. It is about respectful communication, which is pretty orthogonal.
  - fellellor 4y ago
    I can just ghost you. The only obligatory relationship possible between us is either of blood or money. As a private individual, I don’t really owe you anything. You have the previlege of not having to use my work, or fork it and make it your own.
    - epse 4y ago
      You can and that's fine, but if you do reply and you're unnecessarily rude, I hope we can agree that's bad