4 ms·

You're talking too high-falutin for me! Major enemy, justify, revanchism - people don't want to die for those words, words I consider to be propaganda words. W

You're talking too high-falutin for me! Major enemy, justify, revanchism - people don't want to die for those words, words I consider to be propaganda words. What are the people running Russia really afraid of? I assume they've been feeling existentially threatened, their boarders being indefensible, centuries of being invaded repeatedly across the open plains, declining economy and demographics, etc. Putin rolled the dice trying to take more of Ukraine, on his way towards defensible mountain passes, and it hasn't gone well for him. The real motivation is not revanchism, it's strategic. Countries come and go, sometimes disappearing. Russia is in decline, and they are doing what they think will improve their situation. What are the people running the West afraid of? I assume they'd rather arm Ukrainians and have them die fighting Russians, in order to avoid having Western Europe possibly be involved first-hand in a war. Better that Ukrainians die than Westerners. The US is not existentially threatened, but we feel that it is in our interests to be involved in this war, as opposed to others that we don't care about. I agree with what you said that it is strategically important for the West that Russia loses, but I wonder if I look at it more cynically than you do. I guess I'd be happier if people recognized that states are usually selfish more than moral, and often hypocrites.

yobbo 4y ago
> What are the people running Russia really afraid of? Democracy. > Better that Ukrainians die than Westerners. The west is saving Ukrainian lives at the moment. Not "sort of" - the aid is actually stopping Russia's ethnic cleansing. They find mass graves of tortured civilians in each liberated town. Western soldiers in Ukraine would escalate the war. > What are the people running the West afraid of? Russian military.
- mikem170 4y ago
  > Democracy I don't think avoiding democracy is the reason that Russia invaded Ukraine. How are the two related? I assume they attempted to seize Ukraine in an attempt to better their strategic military and economic position. > The west is saving Ukrainian lives at the moment. I don't think that saving Ukrainian lives is the reason that the West is supporting Ukraine. In fact, our support of Ukraine has probably caused many Ukranians to die in the short term. If we wanted to save Ukrainian lives we would have told them to surrender. > Russian military I agree with you that the West is afraid of the Russian military. That's why we are involved. Not because of morals, not to save Ukrainian lives.
libertine 4y ago
>What are the people running Russia really afraid of? Putin seems to be afraid of losing his grip on Russian governance, and a Ukraine closer to the west means Russians will have yet another ex soviet state thrive and be modernized. For how long has Ukraine been stomped by Russia? And you can see this in all of his address, talking about the GREATNESS of Russia - greatness shouldn't be preached, it usually shows in their sphere of influence. And Russia had the resources to actually be a great power - they're sandwiched between the largest trading block in the world, and a country on a crazy growth trajectory. No one wants to invade Russia. Maybe the reality of the narrative of the "West never wanted to play with Russia", is probably that after what Putin did in Chechnya he set the tone for future relationships. The US has also done some wrong doing, like he constantly reminds us to try to justify the validity of his actions, but at least the US leadership is renewed - we're stuck with Putin. So this clearly isn't about being invaded. Those days of "open plain fields will allow them to march to the doors of Moscow" are long, long gone. That's his excuse. This event seems to point at an attempt of Putin to remain in power. Even the narrative of him being the more moderate actor, while all the others preach for nuclear war is obvious, and a foreign enemy... where Russians used to take vacations, and the governance sent their children to study... That's why the next decades will be of absurdity. >What are the people running the West afraid of? Of a warmonger neighbor. Don't fool yourself: I'm pretty sure if they could intervene to end this rather fast, they would. Don't forget that the west has been providing weapons with tech from the 80's, 90's and early 2000's... the closest thing to modern hardware are drones... an actually participation of Western countries would end this conflict fast. Of course there would be casualties, but the retreat to Russian borders in sight, it would be fast.

yobbo 4y ago

> What are the people running Russia really afraid of? Democracy. > Better that Ukrainians die than Westerners. The west is saving Ukrainian lives at the moment. Not "sort of" - the aid is actually stopping Russia's ethnic cleansing. They find mass graves of tortured civilians in each liberated town. Western soldiers in Ukraine would escalate the war. > What are the people running the West afraid of? Russian military.

mikem170 4y ago
> Democracy I don't think avoiding democracy is the reason that Russia invaded Ukraine. How are the two related? I assume they attempted to seize Ukraine in an attempt to better their strategic military and economic position. > The west is saving Ukrainian lives at the moment. I don't think that saving Ukrainian lives is the reason that the West is supporting Ukraine. In fact, our support of Ukraine has probably caused many Ukranians to die in the short term. If we wanted to save Ukrainian lives we would have told them to surrender. > Russian military I agree with you that the West is afraid of the Russian military. That's why we are involved. Not because of morals, not to save Ukrainian lives.

libertine 4y ago

>What are the people running Russia really afraid of? Putin seems to be afraid of losing his grip on Russian governance, and a Ukraine closer to the west means Russians will have yet another ex soviet state thrive and be modernized. For how long has Ukraine been stomped by Russia? And you can see this in all of his address, talking about the GREATNESS of Russia - greatness shouldn't be preached, it usually shows in their sphere of influence. And Russia had the resources to actually be a great power - they're sandwiched between the largest trading block in the world, and a country on a crazy growth trajectory. No one wants to invade Russia. Maybe the reality of the narrative of the "West never wanted to play with Russia", is probably that after what Putin did in Chechnya he set the tone for future relationships. The US has also done some wrong doing, like he constantly reminds us to try to justify the validity of his actions, but at least the US leadership is renewed - we're stuck with Putin. So this clearly isn't about being invaded. Those days of "open plain fields will allow them to march to the doors of Moscow" are long, long gone. That's his excuse. This event seems to point at an attempt of Putin to remain in power. Even the narrative of him being the more moderate actor, while all the others preach for nuclear war is obvious, and a foreign enemy... where Russians used to take vacations, and the governance sent their children to study... That's why the next decades will be of absurdity. >What are the people running the West afraid of? Of a warmonger neighbor. Don't fool yourself: I'm pretty sure if they could intervene to end this rather fast, they would. Don't forget that the west has been providing weapons with tech from the 80's, 90's and early 2000's... the closest thing to modern hardware are drones... an actually participation of Western countries would end this conflict fast. Of course there would be casualties, but the retreat to Russian borders in sight, it would be fast.