13 ms·

Doubt. It's maybe possible that LSD (and per the article, LSD-like chemicals) has a chemical effect on depression, but based on the fact that MANY different ps

Doubt. It's maybe possible that LSD (and per the article, LSD-like chemicals) has a chemical effect on depression, but based on the fact that MANY different psycadelics exhibit similar anti depression abilities, it seems more likely that it is the actual experience of the trip that confers most of the benefit.

desro 4y ago
[citation needed]
- rippercushions 4y ago
  There is significant evidence that MDMA, LSD and psilocybin, which are all psychedelic drugs but wildly different chemically, have a significant impact on depression. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_therapy
  - waffleiron 4y ago
    Every single one of these has an effect on serotonin receptors, there are a lot of clinical antidepressants that don’t make you trip but affect serotonin. So I don’t think this is actually proof of the trip being needed
    - eurasiantiger 4y ago
      There’s also some evidence that those serotonergic antidepressants actually worsen depression and make it chronic.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - rippercushions 4y ago
      The difference is that antidepressants have a temporary effect on serotonin levels and thus need to be taken continuously, while a "trip" on psychedelics appears to actually be able to rewire your brain, so a single dose can have permanent or at least much more long-lasting effects.
GavinMcG 4y ago
“It’s possible that consuming glucose (and other forms of sugar) has an effect on weight gain, but based on the fact that MANY different foods exhibit similar weight-related effects, it seems more likely that it is the actual experience of flavor that makes the body convert calories to fat.”
- sheen 4y ago
  I heard an interesting counterploint the other day. I think the statement is completely unfounded but figured I'd share because it sounds reasonable... "Memories are formed by neural pathways, and it is these memories / correlations that form a basis for (some) mental illness. Taking psychedelics can help take another perspective on these memories and rewrite these these pathways / correlations."
  - phnofive 4y ago
    This is specifically true for some phobias: https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/triggering-original-fear-memories-could-treat-phobias-and-ptsd https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-maga...
    - Sugimot0 4y ago
      Wow this sheds some new light on an anecdotal experience if mine: I once watched a climber free climb a moderate 30 meter route me and my friends had just completed with ropes, and he mentioned his LSD hallucination was peaking as he saw us at the top. I considered that maybe climbers like him have exceptionally higher risk tolerance or a habituated comfort with psychedelics and climbing. However, as someone with a reasonable amount of exposure to both of those (separately), it still baffled me. This feels like a more palatable explanation in tandem with higher risk tolerances and habituation.
    - sheen 4y ago
      Great read. Thanks for sharing!
- 4y ago
galaxyLogic 4y ago
Maybe it's part of the "actual experience" that you don't feel depressed any more. The hallucinations, who needs those. Therapeutically what matters is the increased feeling of well-being that lasts for weeks if not longer.
- Out_of_Characte 4y ago
  The hallucinations do really help. Its very difficult to be depressed when all the trees are dancing and shining. LSD and the likes also avoids congnitive hallucinations in most people so you're perfectly aware that it's just the wind.
  - peanut_worm 4y ago
    What is a “cognitive hallucination”? LSD can absolutely change your thought patterns
  - sterlind 4y ago
    set and setting. 2C-E showed me how I was a tiny spec, on a tiny speck of a planet, in an infinitely large universe, cold and unfeeling and uncaring, loved only in a tiny way by only a couple of other tiny specs, all of whom would die in a brief instant, cosmically speaking. it was like Carl Sagan showed up to tell me how meaningless my existence was. also, unbearable sensory overload as the panic attack worsened, seconds took minutes to pass, and my kidneys felt like they were failing (they were fine though.) the ego death was more or less permanent. my "self" never recovered, I had to build a new one. uncanny experiences of feeling like I wasn't my parents' real daughter, that my phone was a dead person's. I wasn't the same person. but this person is better than she was. so.. worth it in the (years-)long run, but hardly sunshine and roses! bad trips are scary. 2C-E is known for being cold and analytical, but I'm sure you can have similar experiences on acid.
  - Schroedingersat 4y ago
    Unless the thing that makes the trees dance and shine rather than loom and glow ominously is the same thing that has the anti depressant effect. I personally think pearl clutching about the idea someone might have fun whilst benefiting from medicine is stupid and there's no reason psychedelics should not be available to anyone who is screened for potential contraindications, but there's no reason to assert that all of the different effects are inexorably linked.
tpm 4y ago
I am also doubtful, but the new molecules look quite a bit different to both LSD-like and tryptamine psychedelics, so it will be interesting to see what will the test subjects say, if it gets that far.
dqpb 4y ago
Maybe the only reason you associate positively with the trip is that it's paired with anti depressant effects.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ipnon 4y ago
There are also primarily dopaminergic psychedelics like ibogaine that have even more potent therapeutic benefits. This suggests it is not sertonergic effects that are the primary therapy.
heavyset_go 4y ago
I agree with this. There are novel tryptamines that exist that bind to 5HT2A but don't cause a trip. I've tried a couple of them. They do have effects upon mood, generally positive, but they are distinctly different than the effects on mood from an actual trip. I think the difference comes from the meaning and significance that come from the experience of the trip itself. The meaning is logically and emotionally interwoven with your perspective, effectively changing it. I believe experience is required for that profound perspective shift, and non-psychedelic 5HT2A agonists don't provide that experience.

desro 4y ago

[citation needed]

rippercushions 4y ago
There is significant evidence that MDMA, LSD and psilocybin, which are all psychedelic drugs but wildly different chemically, have a significant impact on depression. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_therapy
- waffleiron 4y ago
  Every single one of these has an effect on serotonin receptors, there are a lot of clinical antidepressants that don’t make you trip but affect serotonin. So I don’t think this is actually proof of the trip being needed
  - eurasiantiger 4y ago
    There’s also some evidence that those serotonergic antidepressants actually worsen depression and make it chronic.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - rippercushions 4y ago
    The difference is that antidepressants have a temporary effect on serotonin levels and thus need to be taken continuously, while a "trip" on psychedelics appears to actually be able to rewire your brain, so a single dose can have permanent or at least much more long-lasting effects.

GavinMcG 4y ago

“It’s possible that consuming glucose (and other forms of sugar) has an effect on weight gain, but based on the fact that MANY different foods exhibit similar weight-related effects, it seems more likely that it is the actual experience of flavor that makes the body convert calories to fat.”

sheen 4y ago
I heard an interesting counterploint the other day. I think the statement is completely unfounded but figured I'd share because it sounds reasonable... "Memories are formed by neural pathways, and it is these memories / correlations that form a basis for (some) mental illness. Taking psychedelics can help take another perspective on these memories and rewrite these these pathways / correlations."
- phnofive 4y ago
  This is specifically true for some phobias: https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/triggering-original-fear-memories-could-treat-phobias-and-ptsd https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-maga...
  - Sugimot0 4y ago
    Wow this sheds some new light on an anecdotal experience if mine: I once watched a climber free climb a moderate 30 meter route me and my friends had just completed with ropes, and he mentioned his LSD hallucination was peaking as he saw us at the top. I considered that maybe climbers like him have exceptionally higher risk tolerance or a habituated comfort with psychedelics and climbing. However, as someone with a reasonable amount of exposure to both of those (separately), it still baffled me. This feels like a more palatable explanation in tandem with higher risk tolerances and habituation.
  - sheen 4y ago
    Great read. Thanks for sharing!
4y ago

galaxyLogic 4y ago

Maybe it's part of the "actual experience" that you don't feel depressed any more. The hallucinations, who needs those. Therapeutically what matters is the increased feeling of well-being that lasts for weeks if not longer.

Out_of_Characte 4y ago
The hallucinations do really help. Its very difficult to be depressed when all the trees are dancing and shining. LSD and the likes also avoids congnitive hallucinations in most people so you're perfectly aware that it's just the wind.
- peanut_worm 4y ago
  What is a “cognitive hallucination”? LSD can absolutely change your thought patterns
- sterlind 4y ago
  set and setting. 2C-E showed me how I was a tiny spec, on a tiny speck of a planet, in an infinitely large universe, cold and unfeeling and uncaring, loved only in a tiny way by only a couple of other tiny specs, all of whom would die in a brief instant, cosmically speaking. it was like Carl Sagan showed up to tell me how meaningless my existence was. also, unbearable sensory overload as the panic attack worsened, seconds took minutes to pass, and my kidneys felt like they were failing (they were fine though.) the ego death was more or less permanent. my "self" never recovered, I had to build a new one. uncanny experiences of feeling like I wasn't my parents' real daughter, that my phone was a dead person's. I wasn't the same person. but this person is better than she was. so.. worth it in the (years-)long run, but hardly sunshine and roses! bad trips are scary. 2C-E is known for being cold and analytical, but I'm sure you can have similar experiences on acid.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  Unless the thing that makes the trees dance and shine rather than loom and glow ominously is the same thing that has the anti depressant effect. I personally think pearl clutching about the idea someone might have fun whilst benefiting from medicine is stupid and there's no reason psychedelics should not be available to anyone who is screened for potential contraindications, but there's no reason to assert that all of the different effects are inexorably linked.

tpm 4y ago

I am also doubtful, but the new molecules look quite a bit different to both LSD-like and tryptamine psychedelics, so it will be interesting to see what will the test subjects say, if it gets that far.

dqpb 4y ago

Maybe the only reason you associate positively with the trip is that it's paired with anti depressant effects.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ipnon 4y ago

There are also primarily dopaminergic psychedelics like ibogaine that have even more potent therapeutic benefits. This suggests it is not sertonergic effects that are the primary therapy.

heavyset_go 4y ago

I agree with this. There are novel tryptamines that exist that bind to 5HT2A but don't cause a trip. I've tried a couple of them. They do have effects upon mood, generally positive, but they are distinctly different than the effects on mood from an actual trip. I think the difference comes from the meaning and significance that come from the experience of the trip itself. The meaning is logically and emotionally interwoven with your perspective, effectively changing it. I believe experience is required for that profound perspective shift, and non-psychedelic 5HT2A agonists don't provide that experience.