7 ms·

Without saying I agree with him on this, here's his defense of it: https://stallman.org/articles/dr-stallman.html https://stallman.org/articles/dr-stallman.html

mgraczyk 4y ago
It just shows how out of touch he is. Almost everyone I've worked with in my career has had a PhD. Not one of them have ever included "Dr" in their titles on emails or anywhere else. I've even worked with a few MD/PhDs who transitioned to software engineering, and they did not include "Dr" in their capacities as software engineers.
- spullara 4y ago
  It is now being included by folks that historically didn't get many doctorates and it is considered ok.
- irrational 4y ago
  I have a brother in law who has an PhD in economics who signs everything Dr and refers to himself as doctor. We don’t get along.
  - kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
    He missed his calling as maestro.
  - worik 4y ago
    > who signs everything Dr As he should. He earned it
- layer8 4y ago
  It used to be more common, and is still quite common in Europe, I believe.
  - progre 4y ago
    It's common in Germany. It's concidered pompous asshattery everywhere else.
    - LtWorf 4y ago
      In Italy you can call yourself doctor with a bachelor degree. And people do sign "doctor" in official communication. It's also illegal to do it without actually having the title.
- CamperBob2 4y ago
  One exception that comes to mind would be Ferdinand Porsche. To this day the company is called "Dr. Ing. h. c. F. Porsche AG" (although I wonder if that changed with their recent IPO.)
  - kelnos 4y ago
    At least they include "h. c.", honoris causa, "for honor", which is where we get the (perhaps not all that well translated) term "honorary" doctorate.
- subjectsigma 4y ago
  I work with several PhDs and it's probably a 60%-40% of people who don't use "Dr." as a title and people who do. So (anecdotally) it still happens.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  In Germany people always do though. Cultural context or people showing off, I am not sure.
  - ElemenoPicuares 4y ago
    Sure, but not particularly relevant in this context.
  - josefx 4y ago
    Germany is also rather strict about it and using an academic title like doctor when you do not have the right to it can be considered fraud. A honorary doctorate is not considered equal to the academic title and has to be explicitly distinguished.
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  I think these titles are just like being a hacker. No one calls themselves a hacker, it's other people who do it after respect is earned. Still, it is a fact that he has a doctorate. I don't think he's wrong to call himself a doctor. A little formal, perhaps?
  - assttoasstmgr 4y ago
    > Still, it is a fact that he has a doctorate. This is false and insulting to people who earned real degrees. He has an honorary doctorate. Which is about as worthless as if someone had the local trophy shoppe mint you a plaque that said "World's Greatest Hacker".
    - pishpash 4y ago
      Maybe universities should stop giving them out then. They can literary give any other honor but they choose to tie it to a doctorate and insult people who earn real degrees. How is Stallman the problem?
      - pvaldes 4y ago
        Sometimes, people create entire new fields of knowledge. The idea that somebody could teach Shakespeare about Shakespeare's work is ludicrous. The idea that somebody could teach what is open source to Stallman for a limited period of time does not have any sense. He coined the term. Honorary doctorates are created for this cases, when the recipient is --the-- expert in the field. Is a shortcut to encourage this experts to became teachers and pass their knowledge. Win-win. Do we really think that somebody spending four years writing a these about emacs knows more than Stallman about a program that he developped since 70's? Is abused to groom donors? Yes, Sometimes is abused, but is a perfectly legit way to became a doctor.
    - matheusmoreira 4y ago
      An honorary doctorate is still a doctorate, though. It doesn't have the usual academic requirements but it's not like universities just hand them out to anyone. It's supposed to denote a significant contribution to a field. Stallman did contribute significantly so I personally see no problem with it.
- tbrownaw 4y ago
  I know someone who does this. She also refers to other people with PhDs as "Dr" even if they don't typically refer to themselves that way. I suspect it's some sort of cultural thing, and that with how much computer people tend to reject typical forms of formality we're just mostly on the far opposite side of whatever cultural thing it is.
- Nursie 4y ago
  I’ve worked with a handful of people with PhDs, that I know of, and about half of them signed off that way. One or two really wanted you to know about it.
- cycomanic 4y ago
  Clearly you haven't had much interaction with German PhDs. It's very common to include titles in your name (this also includes lower ones) there. Although it admittedly has become less common. Let's not even talk about medical doctors everywhere, or formal engineering qualifications, both are very often used in letters. The argument is that they make a direct difference to the perception of the individuals competence (and I know that for medical doctors there is a direct effect on earnings). While I don't think it would make a difference for RMS corresponding with software engineers he might be thinking it does make a difference because of his interaction with other stakeholders. Not really defending it, just offering a different perspective.
  - kelnos 4y ago
    > While I don't think it would make a difference for RMS corresponding with software engineers I think it does make a difference: many software developers might take him less seriously because of it. And that has nothing to do with the fact that his doctorates are honorary; same goes for someone who has completed a PhD program.
  - klqrtz 4y ago
    The German "Dr. med" is a scam. They do 1 year of an irrelevant experiment that is sped up by p-value fishing and get the "Dr. med" thrown after them. They and their professors generally have no clue about the statistics used to validate the fake and irrelevant experiment. They also omit the "med", which is much like omitting "h.c.". And they are very keen on using the title in general.
  - kdomanski 4y ago
    > Clearly you haven't had much interaction with German PhDs. It's very common to include titles in your name (this also includes lower ones) there. Although it admittedly has become less common. Expat living in Germany here. You’re absolutely correct according to my experience. In fact, I’ve seen people with PhD put “Dr.” on the mailbox in front of their home.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- kelnos 4y ago
  Hell, most of the people I know who have PhDs are at least mildly embarrassed if you call them "doctor". Or at the very least they roll their eyes and think the title is silly. This is in the US; I don't know about how people feel in other countries. Granted, these are mostly (or even all?) people who received their doctorates in the past 10 or 15 years, and as such are a good 30 years younger than Stallman, so perhaps there is a generational thing at play here too, where the respect/desirability of titles like that has been dropping over time.
  - genewitch 4y ago
    If they paid the $100,000 why would they be embarassed? There's probably a psychological explanation for their reasoning. M.D. is a "doctor", but a person with their PhD is a "Doctor of ..." If anything, I'm more inclined to believe someone with a Doctorate in anything other than medicine. Perhaps the PhD holders don't want to be associated with the hubris that most medical doctors exude. For reference, google "endometriosis suffer" or spend some time researching medical malpractice. It also is possible that a lot of kids coming out of the 80s got a bum deal on their education - or at least feel they did. Like, "it was too easy to get this degree" - from the standpoint of applying themselves, not the overall workload of getting a PhD. Medical Doctors who are board certified, that did all their rotations, and whatever else required, there's only one other doctorate that requires more workload, and that's psychiatry. What should maybe be questioned is why someone needs a doctorate for "the world to learn from them."
  - jltsiren 4y ago
    Using "doctor" as a title or a form of address is common in the academia, including in the US. It's also very formal, especially in spoken language. Hearing it in situations where such formality is not expected can be awkward and embarrassing.
    - jcelerier 4y ago
      I only ever see it with people in the humanities. In science... weird - more than weird, in general seeing someone who uses the Dr. title is a good indication of "you're going to read the worst shit ever hidden under an insufferable amount of vague verbiage". To give another data point: in France I remember the university having to ask the local profs. to put their titles (Dr, Prof, etc) in their mail signature as otherwise students thought that french teachers were much less competent than e.g. teachers from germany who would have three layers of Dr. Eng. prepended
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  At least he doesn't insist you call him Maestro. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La9c6Af802w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La9c6Af802w
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  This is very culturally dependent, you would be surprised at the # of openly proclaimed Drs in Central Europe - the academic culture inherited from the ancient German-speaking empires loves all sorts of titles. But this is not relevant here, as Dr. Stahlmann doesn't work in Tübingen.
- pvaldes 4y ago
  Is their choice not to use it, but is not a norm engraved in marble. For each one that declines to use the title, you would find ten in the Academia that will happily use it. It depends on if is a formal context or not.
romwell 4y ago
As a math PhD (the usual, thesis-and-all kind), I really see no issue with Dr. Stallman identifying as such. A doctorate is a doctorate. And if it makes him happier, why not? There's no harm or confusion (his qualifications are clear enough in any context where they matter). Unlike, say, the case of Dr. Phil. There so many other things to have an issue with about Stallman, I don't know why this one stands out in particular. ...that said, the only time I've used the "Dr." next to my name was on obnoxious web forms which force me to choose between Mr/Ms/etc, and Dr. is the only non-gendered option.
- assttoasstmgr 4y ago
  > Unlike, say, the case of Dr. Phil. Except Dr. Phil does have an actual PhD. Which he attended university and defended via dissertation. Unlike, say, RMS.
  - ekianjo 4y ago
    A PHD is not that hard to get when you already reach masters degree. Its mostly a matter of choice, not mad skills or something.
    - pishpash 4y ago
      In what world is this true, except at fly-by-night places that advertise on TV?
      - forgotpwd16 4y ago
        As is usual the case with the "I could easily do it had I have the chance", the world of not having enrolled in a PhD programme.
    - LtWorf 4y ago
      in sweden that'd mean 5 more years of university, after 5 years of university.
assttoasstmgr 4y ago
Imagine that. The pedantic buffoon at the center of the ridiculous GNU/Linux naming controversy created an entire page dedicated to his title. Amazing.
- d_tr 4y ago
  There are a few dozen comments about this insignificant detail in this very thread.
DonHopkins 4y ago
Now is the time to call me Doctor! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_A8Xe9M0NY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_A8Xe9M0NY Call me doctor (Call me doctor) No need to look He's not in the book The doctor's not an M.D. What he does this time he does for free https://genius.com/Devo-theme-from-doctor-detroit-lyrics https://genius.com/Devo-theme-from-doctor-detroit-lyrics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2VaMIFEQDg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2VaMIFEQDg >Mom, I am going to rip off your head and shit down your neck. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeOBZWQEJE4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeOBZWQEJE4 >For whatever intimidation and injustice vie with decency and honor, let the Doctors arise, and arise they must, for within every one of us, there is a Doctor, a dormant Doctor, a supreme arbitrator, who can be summoned to intervene, when crises threaten the stabilities and well-beings of our heartlands. Now let's party!

mgraczyk 4y ago

It just shows how out of touch he is. Almost everyone I've worked with in my career has had a PhD. Not one of them have ever included "Dr" in their titles on emails or anywhere else. I've even worked with a few MD/PhDs who transitioned to software engineering, and they did not include "Dr" in their capacities as software engineers.

spullara 4y ago
It is now being included by folks that historically didn't get many doctorates and it is considered ok.
irrational 4y ago
I have a brother in law who has an PhD in economics who signs everything Dr and refers to himself as doctor. We don’t get along.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  He missed his calling as maestro.
- worik 4y ago
  > who signs everything Dr As he should. He earned it
layer8 4y ago
It used to be more common, and is still quite common in Europe, I believe.
- progre 4y ago
  It's common in Germany. It's concidered pompous asshattery everywhere else.
  - LtWorf 4y ago
    In Italy you can call yourself doctor with a bachelor degree. And people do sign "doctor" in official communication. It's also illegal to do it without actually having the title.
CamperBob2 4y ago
One exception that comes to mind would be Ferdinand Porsche. To this day the company is called "Dr. Ing. h. c. F. Porsche AG" (although I wonder if that changed with their recent IPO.)
- kelnos 4y ago
  At least they include "h. c.", honoris causa, "for honor", which is where we get the (perhaps not all that well translated) term "honorary" doctorate.
subjectsigma 4y ago
I work with several PhDs and it's probably a 60%-40% of people who don't use "Dr." as a title and people who do. So (anecdotally) it still happens.
ekianjo 4y ago
In Germany people always do though. Cultural context or people showing off, I am not sure.
- ElemenoPicuares 4y ago
  Sure, but not particularly relevant in this context.
- josefx 4y ago
  Germany is also rather strict about it and using an academic title like doctor when you do not have the right to it can be considered fraud. A honorary doctorate is not considered equal to the academic title and has to be explicitly distinguished.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
I think these titles are just like being a hacker. No one calls themselves a hacker, it's other people who do it after respect is earned. Still, it is a fact that he has a doctorate. I don't think he's wrong to call himself a doctor. A little formal, perhaps?
- assttoasstmgr 4y ago
  > Still, it is a fact that he has a doctorate. This is false and insulting to people who earned real degrees. He has an honorary doctorate. Which is about as worthless as if someone had the local trophy shoppe mint you a plaque that said "World's Greatest Hacker".
  - pishpash 4y ago
    Maybe universities should stop giving them out then. They can literary give any other honor but they choose to tie it to a doctorate and insult people who earn real degrees. How is Stallman the problem?
    - pvaldes 4y ago
      Sometimes, people create entire new fields of knowledge. The idea that somebody could teach Shakespeare about Shakespeare's work is ludicrous. The idea that somebody could teach what is open source to Stallman for a limited period of time does not have any sense. He coined the term. Honorary doctorates are created for this cases, when the recipient is --the-- expert in the field. Is a shortcut to encourage this experts to became teachers and pass their knowledge. Win-win. Do we really think that somebody spending four years writing a these about emacs knows more than Stallman about a program that he developped since 70's? Is abused to groom donors? Yes, Sometimes is abused, but is a perfectly legit way to became a doctor.
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    An honorary doctorate is still a doctorate, though. It doesn't have the usual academic requirements but it's not like universities just hand them out to anyone. It's supposed to denote a significant contribution to a field. Stallman did contribute significantly so I personally see no problem with it.
tbrownaw 4y ago
I know someone who does this. She also refers to other people with PhDs as "Dr" even if they don't typically refer to themselves that way. I suspect it's some sort of cultural thing, and that with how much computer people tend to reject typical forms of formality we're just mostly on the far opposite side of whatever cultural thing it is.
Nursie 4y ago
I’ve worked with a handful of people with PhDs, that I know of, and about half of them signed off that way. One or two really wanted you to know about it.
cycomanic 4y ago
Clearly you haven't had much interaction with German PhDs. It's very common to include titles in your name (this also includes lower ones) there. Although it admittedly has become less common. Let's not even talk about medical doctors everywhere, or formal engineering qualifications, both are very often used in letters. The argument is that they make a direct difference to the perception of the individuals competence (and I know that for medical doctors there is a direct effect on earnings). While I don't think it would make a difference for RMS corresponding with software engineers he might be thinking it does make a difference because of his interaction with other stakeholders. Not really defending it, just offering a different perspective.
- kelnos 4y ago
  > While I don't think it would make a difference for RMS corresponding with software engineers I think it does make a difference: many software developers might take him less seriously because of it. And that has nothing to do with the fact that his doctorates are honorary; same goes for someone who has completed a PhD program.
- klqrtz 4y ago
  The German "Dr. med" is a scam. They do 1 year of an irrelevant experiment that is sped up by p-value fishing and get the "Dr. med" thrown after them. They and their professors generally have no clue about the statistics used to validate the fake and irrelevant experiment. They also omit the "med", which is much like omitting "h.c.". And they are very keen on using the title in general.
- kdomanski 4y ago
  > Clearly you haven't had much interaction with German PhDs. It's very common to include titles in your name (this also includes lower ones) there. Although it admittedly has become less common. Expat living in Germany here. You’re absolutely correct according to my experience. In fact, I’ve seen people with PhD put “Dr.” on the mailbox in front of their home.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
kelnos 4y ago
Hell, most of the people I know who have PhDs are at least mildly embarrassed if you call them "doctor". Or at the very least they roll their eyes and think the title is silly. This is in the US; I don't know about how people feel in other countries. Granted, these are mostly (or even all?) people who received their doctorates in the past 10 or 15 years, and as such are a good 30 years younger than Stallman, so perhaps there is a generational thing at play here too, where the respect/desirability of titles like that has been dropping over time.
- genewitch 4y ago
  If they paid the $100,000 why would they be embarassed? There's probably a psychological explanation for their reasoning. M.D. is a "doctor", but a person with their PhD is a "Doctor of ..." If anything, I'm more inclined to believe someone with a Doctorate in anything other than medicine. Perhaps the PhD holders don't want to be associated with the hubris that most medical doctors exude. For reference, google "endometriosis suffer" or spend some time researching medical malpractice. It also is possible that a lot of kids coming out of the 80s got a bum deal on their education - or at least feel they did. Like, "it was too easy to get this degree" - from the standpoint of applying themselves, not the overall workload of getting a PhD. Medical Doctors who are board certified, that did all their rotations, and whatever else required, there's only one other doctorate that requires more workload, and that's psychiatry. What should maybe be questioned is why someone needs a doctorate for "the world to learn from them."
- jltsiren 4y ago
  Using "doctor" as a title or a form of address is common in the academia, including in the US. It's also very formal, especially in spoken language. Hearing it in situations where such formality is not expected can be awkward and embarrassing.
  - jcelerier 4y ago
    I only ever see it with people in the humanities. In science... weird - more than weird, in general seeing someone who uses the Dr. title is a good indication of "you're going to read the worst shit ever hidden under an insufferable amount of vague verbiage". To give another data point: in France I remember the university having to ask the local profs. to put their titles (Dr, Prof, etc) in their mail signature as otherwise students thought that french teachers were much less competent than e.g. teachers from germany who would have three layers of Dr. Eng. prepended
DonHopkins 4y ago
At least he doesn't insist you call him Maestro. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La9c6Af802w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La9c6Af802w
inglor_cz 4y ago
This is very culturally dependent, you would be surprised at the # of openly proclaimed Drs in Central Europe - the academic culture inherited from the ancient German-speaking empires loves all sorts of titles. But this is not relevant here, as Dr. Stahlmann doesn't work in Tübingen.
pvaldes 4y ago
Is their choice not to use it, but is not a norm engraved in marble. For each one that declines to use the title, you would find ten in the Academia that will happily use it. It depends on if is a formal context or not.

romwell 4y ago

As a math PhD (the usual, thesis-and-all kind), I really see no issue with Dr. Stallman identifying as such. A doctorate is a doctorate. And if it makes him happier, why not? There's no harm or confusion (his qualifications are clear enough in any context where they matter). Unlike, say, the case of Dr. Phil. There so many other things to have an issue with about Stallman, I don't know why this one stands out in particular. ...that said, the only time I've used the "Dr." next to my name was on obnoxious web forms which force me to choose between Mr/Ms/etc, and Dr. is the only non-gendered option.

assttoasstmgr 4y ago
> Unlike, say, the case of Dr. Phil. Except Dr. Phil does have an actual PhD. Which he attended university and defended via dissertation. Unlike, say, RMS.
- ekianjo 4y ago
  A PHD is not that hard to get when you already reach masters degree. Its mostly a matter of choice, not mad skills or something.
  - pishpash 4y ago
    In what world is this true, except at fly-by-night places that advertise on TV?
    - forgotpwd16 4y ago
      As is usual the case with the "I could easily do it had I have the chance", the world of not having enrolled in a PhD programme.
  - LtWorf 4y ago
    in sweden that'd mean 5 more years of university, after 5 years of university.

assttoasstmgr 4y ago

Imagine that. The pedantic buffoon at the center of the ridiculous GNU/Linux naming controversy created an entire page dedicated to his title. Amazing.

d_tr 4y ago
There are a few dozen comments about this insignificant detail in this very thread.

DonHopkins 4y ago

Now is the time to call me Doctor! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_A8Xe9M0NY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_A8Xe9M0NY Call me doctor (Call me doctor) No need to look He's not in the book The doctor's not an M.D. What he does this time he does for free https://genius.com/Devo-theme-from-doctor-detroit-lyrics https://genius.com/Devo-theme-from-doctor-detroit-lyrics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2VaMIFEQDg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2VaMIFEQDg >Mom, I am going to rip off your head and shit down your neck. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeOBZWQEJE4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeOBZWQEJE4 >For whatever intimidation and injustice vie with decency and honor, let the Doctors arise, and arise they must, for within every one of us, there is a Doctor, a dormant Doctor, a supreme arbitrator, who can be summoned to intervene, when crises threaten the stabilities and well-beings of our heartlands. Now let's party!