4 ms·

I've listened to this audio many years ago. I know that based on the transcript it's easy to paint the narrative that US is the puppet master pulling the string

by hbrn 4y ago

I've listened to this audio many years ago. I know that based on the transcript it's easy to paint the narrative that US is the puppet master pulling the strings. A narrative so favored by both US and Russian citizens. But the reality is that the sparks that lit the fire (declining to sign the EU trade deal, brutally attacking protestors, passing "dictatorship laws", etc) were completely Russian made. The reason that Russia lost control over Ukraine is Russia and Russia alone. The stupidity and yes, irrationality of their actions led them to lose all the influence they had. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Euromaidan Sometimes the girlfriend dumps you simply because you're an asshole, not because she was "stolen" from you. And of course US tried to ride the wave after the revolution was triggered, why wouldn't they? Also, my understanding is that noone "controls" Ukraine. US obviously has a significant influence, but that doesn't even come close to a Russian puppet president they had in the past.

ghostwriter 4y ago
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Euromaidan : After a small group of protesters attempted to storm the Government Building, police used tear gas to disperse them. Protesters also used tear gas and some fire crackers (according to police protesters were first to use them). According to the General Prosecutor's Office, more than 400 people were injured from 24 November to 13 December, including 200 policemen and 18 students. The US proclaimed this kind of events on their territory as "January 6 attempted coup", and people involved are now being prosecuted by the US authorities. > but that doesn't even come close to a Russian puppet president they had in the past The so-called puppet president didn't break state laws when he suspended preparations for signing of the Association Agreement, yet the coup happened anyways. His prior election was also recognized and endorsed as being fair and an accurate reflection of voters' intentions by all international agencies observing the election including the OSCE and PACE [1], yet he was ousted out of the country by the armed mob who didn't care about legitimacy of their actions. Meanwhile the US Assistant Secretary of State and the US Ambassador to Ukraine were deciding who would take what roles in the new Ukrainian government. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_election#Results https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_el...
- hbrn 4y ago
  > The US proclaimed this kind of events on their territory as "January 6 attempted coup", and people involved are now being prosecuted by the US authorities. Yep. And if democrats were to provision laws like that in response: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-protest_laws_in_Ukraine#Provisions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-protest_laws_in_Ukraine#P... you would not be describing this coup as "attempted" today. > The so-called puppet president didn't break state laws Not sure why that's relevant. As you said it yourself, he was ousted by protesters, not by Supreme Court. Breaking state laws is not the only reason for people to be upset.
  - ghostwriter 4y ago
    > Breaking state laws is not the only reason for people to be upset. Proven violation of state laws is a mandatory pre-requisite for a legitimate president expulsion from his office, "people get upset" isn't the same as the opportunistic power grab where democratic process wasn't held and due process wasn't respected. The US representatives were involved in the process to a degree, and yet you claim that it was the pro-russian puppet president at fault.
    - hbrn 4y ago
      People got upset and president fled from the country. How would you suggest it should be handled? I think Ukraine handled it almost perfectly: A temporary government was formed. Two democratic elections were held since. Each resulted in a new president being elected. You could echo Russian talking points and call it undemocratic coup. But Ukraine undeniably returned back to stable democracy within a year. For a corrupt ex-soviet country, that's pretty damn impressive.
      - yucky 4y ago
        The President fled when his life was threatened after the coup. Him fleeing might be cowardly but it doesn't make it not a coup. And the Ukraine Constitution was then changed, so elections after that aren't considered legitimate by everyone as a result. I mean we consider it legit because now our guys are running things.

by hbrn 4y ago

ghostwriter 4y ago

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Euromaidan : After a small group of protesters attempted to storm the Government Building, police used tear gas to disperse them. Protesters also used tear gas and some fire crackers (according to police protesters were first to use them). According to the General Prosecutor's Office, more than 400 people were injured from 24 November to 13 December, including 200 policemen and 18 students. The US proclaimed this kind of events on their territory as "January 6 attempted coup", and people involved are now being prosecuted by the US authorities. > but that doesn't even come close to a Russian puppet president they had in the past The so-called puppet president didn't break state laws when he suspended preparations for signing of the Association Agreement, yet the coup happened anyways. His prior election was also recognized and endorsed as being fair and an accurate reflection of voters' intentions by all international agencies observing the election including the OSCE and PACE [1], yet he was ousted out of the country by the armed mob who didn't care about legitimacy of their actions. Meanwhile the US Assistant Secretary of State and the US Ambassador to Ukraine were deciding who would take what roles in the new Ukrainian government. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_election#Results https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Ukrainian_presidential_el...

hbrn 4y ago
> The US proclaimed this kind of events on their territory as "January 6 attempted coup", and people involved are now being prosecuted by the US authorities. Yep. And if democrats were to provision laws like that in response: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-protest_laws_in_Ukraine#Provisions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-protest_laws_in_Ukraine#P... you would not be describing this coup as "attempted" today. > The so-called puppet president didn't break state laws Not sure why that's relevant. As you said it yourself, he was ousted by protesters, not by Supreme Court. Breaking state laws is not the only reason for people to be upset.
- ghostwriter 4y ago
  > Breaking state laws is not the only reason for people to be upset. Proven violation of state laws is a mandatory pre-requisite for a legitimate president expulsion from his office, "people get upset" isn't the same as the opportunistic power grab where democratic process wasn't held and due process wasn't respected. The US representatives were involved in the process to a degree, and yet you claim that it was the pro-russian puppet president at fault.
  - hbrn 4y ago
    People got upset and president fled from the country. How would you suggest it should be handled? I think Ukraine handled it almost perfectly: A temporary government was formed. Two democratic elections were held since. Each resulted in a new president being elected. You could echo Russian talking points and call it undemocratic coup. But Ukraine undeniably returned back to stable democracy within a year. For a corrupt ex-soviet country, that's pretty damn impressive.
    - yucky 4y ago
      The President fled when his life was threatened after the coup. Him fleeing might be cowardly but it doesn't make it not a coup. And the Ukraine Constitution was then changed, so elections after that aren't considered legitimate by everyone as a result. I mean we consider it legit because now our guys are running things.