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What options will you suggest for web developers instead? How can you develop a convenient user experience without js? Even the most simple things require it, a

What options will you suggest for web developers instead? How can you develop a convenient user experience without js? Even the most simple things require it, and will likely use a third party framework.

autoexec 4y ago
As someone who blocks JS by default, don't depend on remotely hosted JS. If I go to example.com and I think it seems truthworthy I might allow scripts to run from that domain and that domain only. If the site doesn't work after that, I'll just close the tab and move on. The simple stuff doesn't need bloated frameworks. Don't obfuscate your JS either if you can help it. If I'm not sure if I should be trusting your site I'll be looking over your JS to see what's doing, but I'm not spending more time than it takes to glance over it either. a convenient user experience to me, is one that fails gracefully without JS. Displaying text/images shouldn't need JS at all. I'll accept that it won't be as fancy without it, and I won't hold it against you for having JS as a fancy default, but a site should still be mostly functional without JS. Content at least should remain accessible.
- magic_hamster 4y ago
  Displaying pictures is one thing. But how are you going to create a dashboard that updates every short interval without JavaScript? Let's say a website serves React from its own domain, so no 3rd party references are used (which in this case it'll be very easy for them to serve you a modified version of the framework), they'd rightfully want to save bandwidth and minimize it! Which means obfuscation as a byproduct. I understand where you're coming from and I do a fair share of blocking myself, but I also see why things are the way they are if you want to develop an online product.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    For somethings you really can't help but depend on javascript. I don't really mind it if it's something ambitious enough, it's the display of basic content breaking that bugs me most. A dashboard may still work if you can just display the current data and add a note that because JS is disabled the page must be refreshed manually to pull updated values. You don't even have to throw in a refresh button since the browser's already got one. If I go to a website without JS enabled I expect things to take a bit more work on my part. Minified JS is a problem I run into a lot. Most of the time though, I err on the side of caution and just move on. There's so many interesting things worthy of my attention that if the site full of inscrutable javascript is just a random article/blog post or something shared as a general "hey look at this cool/fun/impressive site" it can easily be abandoned for something less troublesome. For sites I actually do need to access for some reason I can take the time to analyze it properly, but most of the time those kinds of sites are already familiar/trustworthy, and I've got other options too like firing up a less restricted browser in a VM. I certainly don't expect developers to give up using JavaScript for the sake of the few users like me, but the better a site does at keeping content accessible without it the less likely I am to just move on to the next tab.
slotrans 4y ago
We had lots of convenient user interfaces on the web without JS. "The most simple things" absolutely do not require it. Simple things can be done in pure HTML. That's what the web has always fundamentally been about. You should TRY building a site without JS. Just try it! You'll be amazed.
orev 4y ago
> Even the most simple things require it The “simple things” like displaying a document don’t need JS. Why does every knowledge base system is JS when they are literally just showing a document? Or discussion forums when you’re JS reading them?
jazzyjackson 4y ago
I was converted once I discovered that amazon.com still works with javascript disabled. You just do things the old fashioned way, form submissions that change the session state on the server and generate the html for the next page. I use "redmine" for project development / issue tracking and that works without javascript too. The different form input elements do a lot of work for you, and are very platform-agnostic, unlike javascript, which will fail silently as soon as someone is on an out-of-date android/ios version.
vorticalbox 4y ago
Do you have some examples of things that require JS to do?
- Kiro 4y ago
  Upvoting a comment on Hacker News.
  - vorticalbox 4y ago
    actually that doesn't require javascript. Up voting is done via a link. https://news.ycombinator.com/vote?id={id}&how=up&auth={auth} https://news.ycombinator.com/vote?id={id}&how=up&auth={auth}
    - Kiro 4y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11307758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11307758
      - vorticalbox 4y ago
        While true you can use HN just fine with JS disabled.
        Kiro 4y ago
        I could have said chat clients, games, maps or other things that absolutely require JavaScript. I said upvote on HN to illustrate that even the most basic site still needs some JS to create a sane experience. Having the page reload every time you upvote a comment is not a good alternative.
        superkuh 4y ago
        It's been working for me for years just fine without JS. As for chat clients and games, those things absolutely do not belong in the slow pile of abstractions that is a web browser. They should be native applications and they are on my computers. But you're right about maps. They're extremely well suited to being viewed in a browser with javascript.
mlindner 4y ago
CSS works just fine without any javascript at all. Here's a really obvious example: https://nextspaceflight.com/ https://nextspaceflight.com/ Every single link on this page requires javascript to work, when they could be actually just proper href links.
heavyset_go 4y ago
What of the most simple of things require JavaScript or a third-party framework? Modern CSS can handle a lot on the visual side, and modern HTML allows you to do form validation, dynamic lazy-loading and resizing of images, dialogs, collapsible elements, etc without JavaScript.
- magic_hamster 4y ago
  When I typed that I didn't mean showing a picture or serving a text file. Anything that's not a static page will probably require JavaScript.

autoexec 4y ago

As someone who blocks JS by default, don't depend on remotely hosted JS. If I go to example.com and I think it seems truthworthy I might allow scripts to run from that domain and that domain only. If the site doesn't work after that, I'll just close the tab and move on. The simple stuff doesn't need bloated frameworks. Don't obfuscate your JS either if you can help it. If I'm not sure if I should be trusting your site I'll be looking over your JS to see what's doing, but I'm not spending more time than it takes to glance over it either. a convenient user experience to me, is one that fails gracefully without JS. Displaying text/images shouldn't need JS at all. I'll accept that it won't be as fancy without it, and I won't hold it against you for having JS as a fancy default, but a site should still be mostly functional without JS. Content at least should remain accessible.

magic_hamster 4y ago
Displaying pictures is one thing. But how are you going to create a dashboard that updates every short interval without JavaScript? Let's say a website serves React from its own domain, so no 3rd party references are used (which in this case it'll be very easy for them to serve you a modified version of the framework), they'd rightfully want to save bandwidth and minimize it! Which means obfuscation as a byproduct. I understand where you're coming from and I do a fair share of blocking myself, but I also see why things are the way they are if you want to develop an online product.
- autoexec 4y ago
  For somethings you really can't help but depend on javascript. I don't really mind it if it's something ambitious enough, it's the display of basic content breaking that bugs me most. A dashboard may still work if you can just display the current data and add a note that because JS is disabled the page must be refreshed manually to pull updated values. You don't even have to throw in a refresh button since the browser's already got one. If I go to a website without JS enabled I expect things to take a bit more work on my part. Minified JS is a problem I run into a lot. Most of the time though, I err on the side of caution and just move on. There's so many interesting things worthy of my attention that if the site full of inscrutable javascript is just a random article/blog post or something shared as a general "hey look at this cool/fun/impressive site" it can easily be abandoned for something less troublesome. For sites I actually do need to access for some reason I can take the time to analyze it properly, but most of the time those kinds of sites are already familiar/trustworthy, and I've got other options too like firing up a less restricted browser in a VM. I certainly don't expect developers to give up using JavaScript for the sake of the few users like me, but the better a site does at keeping content accessible without it the less likely I am to just move on to the next tab.

slotrans 4y ago

We had lots of convenient user interfaces on the web without JS. "The most simple things" absolutely do not require it. Simple things can be done in pure HTML. That's what the web has always fundamentally been about. You should TRY building a site without JS. Just try it! You'll be amazed.

orev 4y ago

> Even the most simple things require it The “simple things” like displaying a document don’t need JS. Why does every knowledge base system is JS when they are literally just showing a document? Or discussion forums when you’re JS reading them?

jazzyjackson 4y ago

I was converted once I discovered that amazon.com still works with javascript disabled. You just do things the old fashioned way, form submissions that change the session state on the server and generate the html for the next page. I use "redmine" for project development / issue tracking and that works without javascript too. The different form input elements do a lot of work for you, and are very platform-agnostic, unlike javascript, which will fail silently as soon as someone is on an out-of-date android/ios version.

vorticalbox 4y ago

Do you have some examples of things that require JS to do?

Kiro 4y ago
Upvoting a comment on Hacker News.
- vorticalbox 4y ago
  actually that doesn't require javascript. Up voting is done via a link. https://news.ycombinator.com/vote?id={id}&how=up&auth={auth} https://news.ycombinator.com/vote?id={id}&how=up&auth={auth}
  - Kiro 4y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11307758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11307758
    - vorticalbox 4y ago
      While true you can use HN just fine with JS disabled.
      - Kiro 4y ago
        I could have said chat clients, games, maps or other things that absolutely require JavaScript. I said upvote on HN to illustrate that even the most basic site still needs some JS to create a sane experience. Having the page reload every time you upvote a comment is not a good alternative.
        superkuh 4y ago
        It's been working for me for years just fine without JS. As for chat clients and games, those things absolutely do not belong in the slow pile of abstractions that is a web browser. They should be native applications and they are on my computers. But you're right about maps. They're extremely well suited to being viewed in a browser with javascript.

mlindner 4y ago

CSS works just fine without any javascript at all. Here's a really obvious example: https://nextspaceflight.com/ https://nextspaceflight.com/ Every single link on this page requires javascript to work, when they could be actually just proper href links.

heavyset_go 4y ago

What of the most simple of things require JavaScript or a third-party framework? Modern CSS can handle a lot on the visual side, and modern HTML allows you to do form validation, dynamic lazy-loading and resizing of images, dialogs, collapsible elements, etc without JavaScript.

magic_hamster 4y ago
When I typed that I didn't mean showing a picture or serving a text file. Anything that's not a static page will probably require JavaScript.