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The only good way to handle user data like photos is the way iOS does it. Strictly one place for images. If there is a path then the user doesn’t see it because

The only good way to handle user data like photos is the way iOS does it. Strictly one place for images. If there is a path then the user doesn’t see it because they don’t need to see it. The storage and directory structure is an implementation detail. The second best is a fully manual directory structure with no “surface” added. But this is not nearly as good for the average user. By far the worst one is what you get when you (correctly) like Microsoft realize you are in the second category but you’d like to be in the first. The end result is an annoying middle ground that has plagued windows for a long time now. They probably (incorrectly) assumed they could get to the iOS situation eventually. Separating the application and its binaries isn’t a bad idea though. I don’t want to back up applications, just their data, for example. And I want to be able to have different permissions for the app binaries and elsewhere. So programs\Quicken and data\Quicken would be better than the other way around. And this isn’t far from what windows does. If I create an app I put the user data in %appdata%\myprogram. The folder is annoyingly hard to find though but that’s more an explorer UX issue than a problem with how the files are stored.

Wowfunhappy 4y ago
I have a folder on my computer called "Graduate School". Inside are subfolders for each of the classes I'm taking. Inside these and further subfolders are files such as: • Videos I need to watch for class. • PDFs I need to read for class. • Word documents I am writing for class. • Photos, videos, and audio recordings I will use to write papers for class. The "iOS model" would have me segment all of this data by file type. The PDF from New York State on K-12 educational standards would be next to my 2021 tax returns. My paper on single-sex schools would be next to the technical documentation for a web app I'm developing. This would be terrible. Files need to be organized by purpose, not file type. I know what my files are for. My computer does not. This is also a major reason why I hate my iPhone.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Yeah, I too organize my files by subject, not file type. The latter is crazy.
  - Eisenstein 4y ago
    Why not just use metadata? Directories are a workaround for the way that filesystems were designed. Using keywords is much more logical, and indexing file metadata can allow that.
    - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
      To be clear, I'm not necessarily arguing for directories or against metadata. I just think that grouping by file type is mostly bad.
- alkonaut 4y ago
  On a phone, just 1 category for images (plus of course indexing by geography, time) is more than enough. For a PC where I create things I’d probably want more options too. But handling files and directories I do because I have to not because I want to. To begin with a directory structure just allows organizing by one category (e.g can’t have documents both organized topic then year and year then topic.). I’m not saying the final solution to data organization is just “all Images in one directory”. The solution is one where you don’t worry about directories and still easily find and group the data you need. Windows had grand plans for this that were scrapped. Understandably, but also sadly.
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    > But handling files and directories I do because I have to not because I want to. Oh, I absolutely agree! But as I said, I know what my files are for, and my computer does not. So until we get some incredible AI that not only understands the context of every file but can also use that context to make perfect organizational decisions, I expect to be the one responsible for grouping my data. To be clear, I don't think directory hierarchies are necessarily the be-all end-all of digital organization. For example, I like the idea of organizing based on tags, because a lot of documents rightly belong in more than one category. However, I expect I'll need to be the one who sets the tags. iOS's solution does work better on mobile than on desktop (and iPad), although I do run into problems on my iPhone.
- alistairSH 4y ago
  What “iOS model” are you thinking about? iOS introduced a slightly more normal file structure (from a user perspective) with the Files app. I can create folders with My Documents similar to how I might on a Mac or PC. It’s still a bit odd, as some appears synced to iCloud by default (iCloud Drive) while some is not (On my iDevice). And obv limited by single-user constraints. All that said, I do agree with the general premise that files should be organized in reasonable places by default and users should be able to override that should they see the need.
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    The Files app is a huge improvement, but it doesn't integrate into other apps very well. For example, if I play an audio recording, playback happens within the files app, so I can't browse through other documents at the same time. I could import the audio file into e.g. VLC, but now I'm copying it into a new location. Contrast this with traditional OS X. I can open a file in any app, but the file continues to live in Finder. In a way, you could say that the Mac puts files first in the way that iOS puts apps first. An app is just a tool, and could be used for anything: I write papers for school and documentation for work and poetry for pleasure. A file, on the other hand, has a distinct purpose.
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      Totally agree on that point - the relationship between apps and files is really odd in iOS for anybody who grew up on PCs/Macs. I’ve mostly given up trying to manage files and just trust (Hope? Wish?) iOS to do the right thing. And it usually does, but I’m not creating content or doing work, just consuming.
nyanpasu64 4y ago
How does Apple handle app-specific file formats like game levels, nonstandard file formats like .spc and .psf and SQLite databases the OS can't be expected to know the existence of, and the separation between local, synced, and cloud-only files?
ipaddr 4y ago
What a restricted world where the os caters to the poorly educated user. Folders should be able to handle all file types.
- alkonaut 4y ago
  Tags are just a superior way of accessing anything. The issue is that the shift from a directory structure based world to a tags based world isn't easy. I'm not saying "Desktop OSes should stop using paths", I'm saying "In the future, hopefully we won't need paths (as much)". And yes, of course no one should be stopped from having one area where they have a word document, six images and a text file. OF COURSE. But whether that's a directory or not isn't what's interesting. The interesting part is that I can group them together logically, find and use them easily etc.

Wowfunhappy 4y ago

I have a folder on my computer called "Graduate School". Inside are subfolders for each of the classes I'm taking. Inside these and further subfolders are files such as: • Videos I need to watch for class. • PDFs I need to read for class. • Word documents I am writing for class. • Photos, videos, and audio recordings I will use to write papers for class. The "iOS model" would have me segment all of this data by file type. The PDF from New York State on K-12 educational standards would be next to my 2021 tax returns. My paper on single-sex schools would be next to the technical documentation for a web app I'm developing. This would be terrible. Files need to be organized by purpose, not file type. I know what my files are for. My computer does not. This is also a major reason why I hate my iPhone.

WalterBright 4y ago
Yeah, I too organize my files by subject, not file type. The latter is crazy.
- Eisenstein 4y ago
  Why not just use metadata? Directories are a workaround for the way that filesystems were designed. Using keywords is much more logical, and indexing file metadata can allow that.
  - Wowfunhappy 4y ago
    To be clear, I'm not necessarily arguing for directories or against metadata. I just think that grouping by file type is mostly bad.
alkonaut 4y ago
On a phone, just 1 category for images (plus of course indexing by geography, time) is more than enough. For a PC where I create things I’d probably want more options too. But handling files and directories I do because I have to not because I want to. To begin with a directory structure just allows organizing by one category (e.g can’t have documents both organized topic then year and year then topic.). I’m not saying the final solution to data organization is just “all Images in one directory”. The solution is one where you don’t worry about directories and still easily find and group the data you need. Windows had grand plans for this that were scrapped. Understandably, but also sadly.
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  > But handling files and directories I do because I have to not because I want to. Oh, I absolutely agree! But as I said, I know what my files are for, and my computer does not. So until we get some incredible AI that not only understands the context of every file but can also use that context to make perfect organizational decisions, I expect to be the one responsible for grouping my data. To be clear, I don't think directory hierarchies are necessarily the be-all end-all of digital organization. For example, I like the idea of organizing based on tags, because a lot of documents rightly belong in more than one category. However, I expect I'll need to be the one who sets the tags. iOS's solution does work better on mobile than on desktop (and iPad), although I do run into problems on my iPhone.
alistairSH 4y ago
What “iOS model” are you thinking about? iOS introduced a slightly more normal file structure (from a user perspective) with the Files app. I can create folders with My Documents similar to how I might on a Mac or PC. It’s still a bit odd, as some appears synced to iCloud by default (iCloud Drive) while some is not (On my iDevice). And obv limited by single-user constraints. All that said, I do agree with the general premise that files should be organized in reasonable places by default and users should be able to override that should they see the need.
- Wowfunhappy 4y ago
  The Files app is a huge improvement, but it doesn't integrate into other apps very well. For example, if I play an audio recording, playback happens within the files app, so I can't browse through other documents at the same time. I could import the audio file into e.g. VLC, but now I'm copying it into a new location. Contrast this with traditional OS X. I can open a file in any app, but the file continues to live in Finder. In a way, you could say that the Mac puts files first in the way that iOS puts apps first. An app is just a tool, and could be used for anything: I write papers for school and documentation for work and poetry for pleasure. A file, on the other hand, has a distinct purpose.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Totally agree on that point - the relationship between apps and files is really odd in iOS for anybody who grew up on PCs/Macs. I’ve mostly given up trying to manage files and just trust (Hope? Wish?) iOS to do the right thing. And it usually does, but I’m not creating content or doing work, just consuming.

nyanpasu64 4y ago

How does Apple handle app-specific file formats like game levels, nonstandard file formats like .spc and .psf and SQLite databases the OS can't be expected to know the existence of, and the separation between local, synced, and cloud-only files?

ipaddr 4y ago

What a restricted world where the os caters to the poorly educated user. Folders should be able to handle all file types.

alkonaut 4y ago
Tags are just a superior way of accessing anything. The issue is that the shift from a directory structure based world to a tags based world isn't easy. I'm not saying "Desktop OSes should stop using paths", I'm saying "In the future, hopefully we won't need paths (as much)". And yes, of course no one should be stopped from having one area where they have a word document, six images and a text file. OF COURSE. But whether that's a directory or not isn't what's interesting. The interesting part is that I can group them together logically, find and use them easily etc.