6 ms·

Somewhat related, but in my experience with other male friends, oftentimes (not all of course but at least a few, anecdotally) women might say it's okay to tell

Somewhat related, but in my experience with other male friends, oftentimes (not all of course but at least a few, anecdotally) women might say it's okay to tell them about a problem and/or cry, but as soon as you do, they are immediately turned off by it and no longer see you as a strong man who can provide for her. Some of the aforementioned male friends have even been broken up with due to such an incident. It's of course nonsense because every human being regardless of gender should be able to express one's feelings and cry if needed, but perhaps not everyone sees it that way. It is an interesting example of a revealed preference in the sociological space [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revealed_preference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revealed_preference

leobg 4y ago
I think there may be a misunderstanding. From my experience, women do feel closer to a man who is able to share his feelings, and, yes, cry. But expressing feelings is a very different thing from complaining and/or giving up responsibility. I’d argue the problem is that men are often weaker in the area of handling emotions in general, hence they tend to “flip” from “I’m feeling nothing at all” to “I’m useless and the world is going to hell”. That’s what freaks women out, because they feel they can no longer predict your actions. It scares them. (Expose the generalizations. Am on my phone here with no proper keyboard.)
- sage76 4y ago
  “I’m feeling nothing at all” to “I’m useless and the world is going to hell” I don't see anything wrong with people feeling like any of those 2 from time to time. If it is continuous and long term, then it's a matter of concern.
  - thatcat 4y ago
    Its the transition from one extreme to the other with no gradient that makes it emotionally weird.
    - Kye 4y ago
      It's unreasonable for people to ask men to be better about emotions and then expect them to immediately go from being socialized to suppress them to being emotionally mature without some growing pains. Growth takes time and support, and they're less likely to try again if the support vanishes when they try to grow.
      - sage76 4y ago
        Men are being held up to unreasonable emotional standards in general. No weakness, no crying, no feeling like shit ever. These standards lend more and more credence to the thing that Chris Rock said, "Only women and children are loved unconditionally. Men need to provide something to be loved." Of course, these standards are being enforced by men too, not just women. But it does not surprise me that so many men I know have checked out of one or more aspects of life.
        leobg 4y ago
        What Chris Rock said there is the textbook excuse of a person with an avoidant attachment style: Pushing the other person away and not allowing them to get closer by telling yourself that they can only need you, but never ever love you. If you hear that voice inside of you, it‘s „the devil talking“. I say this as someone who has gone through all of this, and a lot more. Instead of seeing these feelings as proof that the world is out to punish you, it‘s much more useful to see that pain as a signal. A signal that tells you that you‘re likely carrying some deep bullshit around from your past and early childhood. And that dating and relationships are here for you not as consumables to fill a need, or as a measure for your own self-worth, but as a challenge, a „task“ in your life that gives you the chance to grow beyond your childhood patterns, and to take an active role in redefining not only your relationships to „woman“, but to mankind as a whole. If you‘re on HN, you‘re very likely an intelligent, resourceful, curious person. You have most likely solved problems in your life that have been much, much tougher. It would be a pity if you ran away from this one.
        sage76 4y ago
- leobg 4y ago
  s/expose/excuse
borplk 4y ago
> women might say it's okay to tell them about a problem and/or cry, but as soon as you do, they are immediately turned off by it and no longer see you as a strong man who can provide for her From an evolutionary lens they are presenting you with a sneaky test and when you cry you fail the test :)
- pythonic_hell 4y ago
  Psychology is closer to Pseudoscience than clinical psychology and medical science. Women don’t belong to some secret organisation that go around testing men for their viable “genetic strength”.
- techdragon 4y ago
  Have you ever told them this in response to being told it’s ok to cry? Have you interrogated your assumption or are you operating on inferences without sufficient evidence? “Women” aren’t some sort of psychosexual Kobayashi Maru where every choice is just a different wait to fail. They might surprise you if you’re willing to engage with them on the topic of how society is engineered to oppress those with feelings and compassion, like women, in places like the workplace, etc…
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
beeboop 4y ago
Sample size 1, but I also had a relationship go downhill and eventually end after constant requests for me to be more vulnerable. I am convinced that people like the superficial appearance of vulnerability when it doesn’t matter and it’s low stakes. But not when it matters and gets messy
bergenty 4y ago
Men cry when the situation calls for it. I don’t understand why there is a need to change the best force for civilization the world has ever seen. Not giving into trivial sadness and breaking down crying and giving into self pity is a genetically imbued superpower. Women just want to bring us down to their level.
- bobkazamakis 4y ago
  cool, then don't date them?
  - bergenty 4y ago
    Why? How about they turn down their histrionic behavior, isn’t that a better solution?
- the_only_law 4y ago
  > Women just want to bring us down to their level. Sounds like someone’s giving in to self pity.
  - bergenty 4y ago
    It’s pity for women and that’s called empathy.
- techdragon 4y ago
  Can’t tell if sarcasm or wrong, or worse… I don’t even know where to begin engaging with this opinion… I’m trying to do this sort of thing less often because it’s better to try converse so you set up the opportunity for the other party to discover the truth themselves… but you are wrong and I would encourage you to go and try and learn enough to back up your assertion from an individual psychological standpoint as opposed to a group psychology or sociological poi;t, what is advantageous for the group can be deleterious for the Individual and possibly even individuals around them.
globalreset 4y ago
People here who pretend this is not case are deluding themselves and others. 100%. Many data points in my own life and lifes of other people I know. What woman say they will do and what the actually do are two completely different things. They can very easily rationalize about anything with "feelings". It's not exactly about crying per se, but psychological weakness. If you shed a tear on a funeral of your parent etc it's ok. But the moment guy seems like a wimp, they loose all attractiveness. They will get to hear that things got boring, or relationship is not fulfilling enough or something else like that at the first convenient opportunity (a more promising candidate has shown up).
MrMember 4y ago
Yep, I lost a relationship because I thought it would be alright to open up to her and be vulnerable. I won't make that mistake again.

leobg 4y ago

I think there may be a misunderstanding. From my experience, women do feel closer to a man who is able to share his feelings, and, yes, cry. But expressing feelings is a very different thing from complaining and/or giving up responsibility. I’d argue the problem is that men are often weaker in the area of handling emotions in general, hence they tend to “flip” from “I’m feeling nothing at all” to “I’m useless and the world is going to hell”. That’s what freaks women out, because they feel they can no longer predict your actions. It scares them. (Expose the generalizations. Am on my phone here with no proper keyboard.)

sage76 4y ago
“I’m feeling nothing at all” to “I’m useless and the world is going to hell” I don't see anything wrong with people feeling like any of those 2 from time to time. If it is continuous and long term, then it's a matter of concern.
- thatcat 4y ago
  Its the transition from one extreme to the other with no gradient that makes it emotionally weird.
  - Kye 4y ago
    It's unreasonable for people to ask men to be better about emotions and then expect them to immediately go from being socialized to suppress them to being emotionally mature without some growing pains. Growth takes time and support, and they're less likely to try again if the support vanishes when they try to grow.
    - sage76 4y ago
      Men are being held up to unreasonable emotional standards in general. No weakness, no crying, no feeling like shit ever. These standards lend more and more credence to the thing that Chris Rock said, "Only women and children are loved unconditionally. Men need to provide something to be loved." Of course, these standards are being enforced by men too, not just women. But it does not surprise me that so many men I know have checked out of one or more aspects of life.
      - leobg 4y ago
        What Chris Rock said there is the textbook excuse of a person with an avoidant attachment style: Pushing the other person away and not allowing them to get closer by telling yourself that they can only need you, but never ever love you. If you hear that voice inside of you, it‘s „the devil talking“. I say this as someone who has gone through all of this, and a lot more. Instead of seeing these feelings as proof that the world is out to punish you, it‘s much more useful to see that pain as a signal. A signal that tells you that you‘re likely carrying some deep bullshit around from your past and early childhood. And that dating and relationships are here for you not as consumables to fill a need, or as a measure for your own self-worth, but as a challenge, a „task“ in your life that gives you the chance to grow beyond your childhood patterns, and to take an active role in redefining not only your relationships to „woman“, but to mankind as a whole. If you‘re on HN, you‘re very likely an intelligent, resourceful, curious person. You have most likely solved problems in your life that have been much, much tougher. It would be a pity if you ran away from this one.
        sage76 4y ago
leobg 4y ago
s/expose/excuse

borplk 4y ago

> women might say it's okay to tell them about a problem and/or cry, but as soon as you do, they are immediately turned off by it and no longer see you as a strong man who can provide for her From an evolutionary lens they are presenting you with a sneaky test and when you cry you fail the test :)

pythonic_hell 4y ago
Psychology is closer to Pseudoscience than clinical psychology and medical science. Women don’t belong to some secret organisation that go around testing men for their viable “genetic strength”.
techdragon 4y ago
Have you ever told them this in response to being told it’s ok to cry? Have you interrogated your assumption or are you operating on inferences without sufficient evidence? “Women” aren’t some sort of psychosexual Kobayashi Maru where every choice is just a different wait to fail. They might surprise you if you’re willing to engage with them on the topic of how society is engineered to oppress those with feelings and compassion, like women, in places like the workplace, etc…

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

beeboop 4y ago

Sample size 1, but I also had a relationship go downhill and eventually end after constant requests for me to be more vulnerable. I am convinced that people like the superficial appearance of vulnerability when it doesn’t matter and it’s low stakes. But not when it matters and gets messy

bergenty 4y ago

Men cry when the situation calls for it. I don’t understand why there is a need to change the best force for civilization the world has ever seen. Not giving into trivial sadness and breaking down crying and giving into self pity is a genetically imbued superpower. Women just want to bring us down to their level.

bobkazamakis 4y ago
cool, then don't date them?
- bergenty 4y ago
  Why? How about they turn down their histrionic behavior, isn’t that a better solution?
the_only_law 4y ago
> Women just want to bring us down to their level. Sounds like someone’s giving in to self pity.
- bergenty 4y ago
  It’s pity for women and that’s called empathy.
techdragon 4y ago
Can’t tell if sarcasm or wrong, or worse… I don’t even know where to begin engaging with this opinion… I’m trying to do this sort of thing less often because it’s better to try converse so you set up the opportunity for the other party to discover the truth themselves… but you are wrong and I would encourage you to go and try and learn enough to back up your assertion from an individual psychological standpoint as opposed to a group psychology or sociological poi;t, what is advantageous for the group can be deleterious for the Individual and possibly even individuals around them.

globalreset 4y ago

People here who pretend this is not case are deluding themselves and others. 100%. Many data points in my own life and lifes of other people I know. What woman say they will do and what the actually do are two completely different things. They can very easily rationalize about anything with "feelings". It's not exactly about crying per se, but psychological weakness. If you shed a tear on a funeral of your parent etc it's ok. But the moment guy seems like a wimp, they loose all attractiveness. They will get to hear that things got boring, or relationship is not fulfilling enough or something else like that at the first convenient opportunity (a more promising candidate has shown up).

MrMember 4y ago

Yep, I lost a relationship because I thought it would be alright to open up to her and be vulnerable. I won't make that mistake again.