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I'm glad it's increasingly possible to discuss intersections of sexism that primarily affect men/boys without it turning into an ideological sparring match. Alt

by Kye 4y ago

I'm glad it's increasingly possible to discuss intersections of sexism that primarily affect men/boys without it turning into an ideological sparring match. Although it's not how I identify these days, I was raised as one, and I really needed help in K-12. I was mostly treated with anything ranging from indifference to contempt by teachers for asking or even appearing to need help. The article correctly identifies the result of experiences like mine: >> "Rather than external pressures, the challenge facing men is one of internal drive and direction." But then fails to identify this. It was hard not to notice girls were treated better by a faculty made up almost entirely of women. This kind of lopsided representation leads to the exact same sorts of problems when it goes the other way. We're just not accustomed, as a culture, to recognizing it when it fails to match our well-developed heuristics for identifying sexism. Recognizing the fact that this lopsided representation is due to the undervaluing of teaching due to sexism doesn't actually help the kids it affects. The internal drive is crushed early, and it's not easily fixed. All the lovely ideas presented by the article won't amount to anything, and don't by the presented data, when we shove kids into a room where half of them are destined to be treated as uncontrollable monsters in training at worst and future leaders who don't and shouldn't need help by dint of birth assignment at best at five years old. Women get cut down later in the pipeline by shitty bosses, sexist work cultures, etc. Men get cut down as boys and, if they're lucky, they may find some support later in life if they're willing to conform to toxic norms.

dfee 4y ago
> Women get cut down later in the pipeline by shitty bosses, sexist work cultures, etc. Men get cut down as boys and, if they're lucky, they may find some support later in life if they're willing to conform to toxic norms. If (as you say) the support comes from conforming to toxic norms, does the lack of support come from conforming to non-toxic norms? Then wouldn’t the toxic norms, providing support, actually be less toxic - at least in terms of receiving support?
- Kye 4y ago
  Support in the same way extremist groups "support" disenfranchised young men by telling them how to buy guns and build bombs while confirming all their beliefs about who's keeping them down with propaganda. I bounced off a tech career track because of all the sexism and, for lack of a better term, "bro shit" in the classes.
  - qorrect 4y ago
    > I bounced off a tech career track because of all the sexism and, for lack of a better term, "bro shit" in the classes. It sounds like you let a group of 'bros' decide your career track. The world is full of shitty people both men and women, you can't let their behavior drive yours.
    - Kye 4y ago
      Doesn't seem like it's much different anywhere along the way after that. I did look. I only get one life. I didn't want to waste it in a field with no interest in changing. Very little seems different ~15 years later.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
jl2718 4y ago
I expect to get flamed for this, maybe rightfully, so apologies for any unintended insensitivities. Here goes: In my personal life, the mtf women that I have known best, have very strong negative views of how men and boys are treated, especially in their own experience. This seems to me, essentially indistinguishable from gender as a social construct. I’m wondering, do you feel like your experience has anything to do with your identity?
- Kye 4y ago
  I'm not MTF, so I can't comment on that. I do know that the clash between what I heard from cis dudes and what I experienced/how I felt was part of figuring out I was nonbinary. They seem to revel in the positive expectations and seek out the validation and feel bad when they fall short of those expectations. They just didn't mesh with what I felt I wanted. I also don't mesh with most of the experiences and feelings I hear about from trans women. I knew about trans people, but had no idea about nonbinary as an identity until the 2010s, so I was pretty much listless and confused identity-wise until then. Now I keep meeting enby after enby whose experiences mesh with my own. >> "I’m wondering, do you feel like your experience has anything to do with your identity?" Identity is just a tag you put on a collection of experiences. You can take the tag off, add others, and make your own. Gender is a social construct, but it also seems to have a biological aspect that every culture we have meaningful records of found a way to apply socially.

by Kye 4y ago

dfee 4y ago

> Women get cut down later in the pipeline by shitty bosses, sexist work cultures, etc. Men get cut down as boys and, if they're lucky, they may find some support later in life if they're willing to conform to toxic norms. If (as you say) the support comes from conforming to toxic norms, does the lack of support come from conforming to non-toxic norms? Then wouldn’t the toxic norms, providing support, actually be less toxic - at least in terms of receiving support?

Kye 4y ago
Support in the same way extremist groups "support" disenfranchised young men by telling them how to buy guns and build bombs while confirming all their beliefs about who's keeping them down with propaganda. I bounced off a tech career track because of all the sexism and, for lack of a better term, "bro shit" in the classes.
- qorrect 4y ago
  > I bounced off a tech career track because of all the sexism and, for lack of a better term, "bro shit" in the classes. It sounds like you let a group of 'bros' decide your career track. The world is full of shitty people both men and women, you can't let their behavior drive yours.
  - Kye 4y ago
    Doesn't seem like it's much different anywhere along the way after that. I did look. I only get one life. I didn't want to waste it in a field with no interest in changing. Very little seems different ~15 years later.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

jl2718 4y ago

I expect to get flamed for this, maybe rightfully, so apologies for any unintended insensitivities. Here goes: In my personal life, the mtf women that I have known best, have very strong negative views of how men and boys are treated, especially in their own experience. This seems to me, essentially indistinguishable from gender as a social construct. I’m wondering, do you feel like your experience has anything to do with your identity?

Kye 4y ago
I'm not MTF, so I can't comment on that. I do know that the clash between what I heard from cis dudes and what I experienced/how I felt was part of figuring out I was nonbinary. They seem to revel in the positive expectations and seek out the validation and feel bad when they fall short of those expectations. They just didn't mesh with what I felt I wanted. I also don't mesh with most of the experiences and feelings I hear about from trans women. I knew about trans people, but had no idea about nonbinary as an identity until the 2010s, so I was pretty much listless and confused identity-wise until then. Now I keep meeting enby after enby whose experiences mesh with my own. >> "I’m wondering, do you feel like your experience has anything to do with your identity?" Identity is just a tag you put on a collection of experiences. You can take the tag off, add others, and make your own. Gender is a social construct, but it also seems to have a biological aspect that every culture we have meaningful records of found a way to apply socially.