4 ms·

A question to the SV hotshots on here: is there a social stigma in the valley around developing for companies like zynga? Or does nobody really care? When a loa

A question to the SV hotshots on here: is there a social stigma in the valley around developing for companies like zynga? Or does nobody really care? When a load of devs meet each other in a bar, does one "admit" that one works for zynga, or simply say so?

smokinn 15y ago
I imagine that would depend on your position in the company. If you're a product manager you might face some stigma but if you're a software engineer I doubt anything matters other than the technical challenges you face. (And Zynga operates at a scale that would definitely create technical challenges.) *disclaimer: I'm not nor have I ever been in SV.
deleted 15y ago
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jpancake 15y ago
People admit it, but usually there's kind of a 'haha, yes, I have no life' disclaimer that goes along with the acknowledgement.
cdibona 15y ago
Zynga is a game company. Who would anyone feel any worse working there than at and enterprise software company or somewhere like fb, tw or google? I'd ask this question to the developers at CarrierIQ though....those guys should be ashamed. Edited to add: No, no one seems anymore ashamed to work at Zynga than one does at any game company.
- JonnieCache 15y ago
  The aesthetic and ethical concerns with Farmville-style games are well documented. http://insertcredit.com/2011/09/22/who-killed-videogames-a-ghost-story/ http://insertcredit.com/2011/09/22/who-killed-videogames-a-g... And HN discussion of above: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3114239 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3114239 Although yes, working for cIQ is worse, and working for BAE is much worse still.
  - absconditus 15y ago
    How is CarrierIQ worse? Has it been proven that anything malicious or questionable was done with any data that might have been collected?
    - JonnieCache 15y ago
      That is a fair point. I guess cIQ represents a greater potential for malpractice. I know pretty much exactly what happens at zynga, and while I don't like it, its no worse than many other unhappy commercial practices. What happens with the cIQ data is hidden from our view, and there is great potential for really bad stuff. However, like you say, it's a closed box. It could all be utterly innocent. Somehow though, I doubt it.
  - lurker17 15y ago
    Whys is working for BAE worse than CIQ or Zynga? Is your idea of boring worse than your idea of evil?
    - JonnieCache 15y ago
      Erm, I was referring to British Aerospace Engineering, the weapons manufacturer. Actually directly handmaking bombs to drop on pakistani kids is definitely more evil than making shit games.
seiji 15y ago
There's a strong bully/prison experiment vibe to these companies. You get used to abusing people because all your friends are hi-fiving you about being good at abusing people. The High Holy developers sit around thinking up ways of manipulating people into addiction. The developers and management get positive social reinforcement from co-workers and the board when they find another hook into people's brains ("Your character will DIE unless you come back RIGHT NOW!" "You haven't visited in 18 hours, VISIT NOW FOR FREE GIFT!"). Reinforcing shady practices of individuals ("It's not unethical, it's funethical!") over time makes developers and management banish any thought of wrongdoing. Users are just an abstract ID anyway -- an abstract ID with access to a credit card. If someone wants to spend $10,000 per day buying purple carrot pixels, why shouldn't we milk them dry?
- teej 15y ago
  Your entire comment is bullshit and it pisses me off. You've never worked at Zynga, so to purport that you know exactly what it's like to work there is bullshit. Your comment reflects exactly what Silicon Valley nerds think of Zynga externally. They think that Zynga is nothing but people refining skinner boxes for people to play in. You've probably seen one or two talks of Mark Pincus talking about "doing every dirty trick in the book" or something like that. Have you ever met him? Do you even know the last time he worked directly on a game? You're allowed to have whatever opinion you like, but this opinion is bullshit. Your entire comment is ridiculously biased and unreflective of Zynga internally or externally. ------------------------------ So yes, JonnieCache, there is a stigma for working at these companies. reflected by the parent comment. Is that stigma justified? Absolutely not. There are plenty of other reasons not to like developing at Zynga most people don't talk about: * Zynga is not a technology company first. This means that product & revenue decisions are always prioritized over innovating tech. Most developers aren't comfortable with companies like that. * Zynga isn't accepted as a legit member of "games companies" circles. You can't tell your buddy who works building a PC MMO or console FPS that you're in games because you work at Zynga. You'll get laughed out of the room. * Developers are not decision makers at Zynga. Product managers and game designers call all the shots. So if you're writing code, you're not really "making games" in the traditional sense, you're just implementing someone else's spec. So is Zynga the best place for a dev to work in the valley? It isn't the worst. You'll make more money and get more perks than you would working at a startup, but it won't be personally fulfilling. Do you spend all day scheming ways to exploit people? Fuck no, get over it already.
bitops 15y ago
In my experience, it's more like going to a bar and asking "where's so-and-so?" and hearing "oh, yeah, we never see them anymore after they started working for Zynga". The reputation is: long hours, cut-throat environment, back-stabbing execs. Just stating what I've heard.
wavephorm 15y ago
Their brand of "psuedo-entertainment" is in the same category as telemarketing, spam email, infomercials. I can't imagine anybody who works there goes home at the end of the day being proud of finding a new way to rope people into clicking a button 700 times in a row.
JonnieCache 15y ago
I've just realised that my question was kind of ambiguous and could be interpreted to make me look like a dick. As I can't edit it any longer, I'll clarify here: I was asking from an "I wonder if SV people have the balls to give the zynga lot flack for making those shitty games?" point of view, not an "I want to go and work for this company now it's worth $7B but I'm worried that nerds might be mean to me in bars" point of view. Just for the record.

smokinn 15y ago

I imagine that would depend on your position in the company. If you're a product manager you might face some stigma but if you're a software engineer I doubt anything matters other than the technical challenges you face. (And Zynga operates at a scale that would definitely create technical challenges.) *disclaimer: I'm not nor have I ever been in SV.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

jpancake 15y ago

People admit it, but usually there's kind of a 'haha, yes, I have no life' disclaimer that goes along with the acknowledgement.

cdibona 15y ago

Zynga is a game company. Who would anyone feel any worse working there than at and enterprise software company or somewhere like fb, tw or google? I'd ask this question to the developers at CarrierIQ though....those guys should be ashamed. Edited to add: No, no one seems anymore ashamed to work at Zynga than one does at any game company.

JonnieCache 15y ago
The aesthetic and ethical concerns with Farmville-style games are well documented. http://insertcredit.com/2011/09/22/who-killed-videogames-a-ghost-story/ http://insertcredit.com/2011/09/22/who-killed-videogames-a-g... And HN discussion of above: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3114239 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3114239 Although yes, working for cIQ is worse, and working for BAE is much worse still.
- absconditus 15y ago
  How is CarrierIQ worse? Has it been proven that anything malicious or questionable was done with any data that might have been collected?
  - JonnieCache 15y ago
    That is a fair point. I guess cIQ represents a greater potential for malpractice. I know pretty much exactly what happens at zynga, and while I don't like it, its no worse than many other unhappy commercial practices. What happens with the cIQ data is hidden from our view, and there is great potential for really bad stuff. However, like you say, it's a closed box. It could all be utterly innocent. Somehow though, I doubt it.
- lurker17 15y ago
  Whys is working for BAE worse than CIQ or Zynga? Is your idea of boring worse than your idea of evil?
  - JonnieCache 15y ago
    Erm, I was referring to British Aerospace Engineering, the weapons manufacturer. Actually directly handmaking bombs to drop on pakistani kids is definitely more evil than making shit games.

seiji 15y ago

There's a strong bully/prison experiment vibe to these companies. You get used to abusing people because all your friends are hi-fiving you about being good at abusing people. The High Holy developers sit around thinking up ways of manipulating people into addiction. The developers and management get positive social reinforcement from co-workers and the board when they find another hook into people's brains ("Your character will DIE unless you come back RIGHT NOW!" "You haven't visited in 18 hours, VISIT NOW FOR FREE GIFT!"). Reinforcing shady practices of individuals ("It's not unethical, it's funethical!") over time makes developers and management banish any thought of wrongdoing. Users are just an abstract ID anyway -- an abstract ID with access to a credit card. If someone wants to spend $10,000 per day buying purple carrot pixels, why shouldn't we milk them dry?

teej 15y ago
Your entire comment is bullshit and it pisses me off. You've never worked at Zynga, so to purport that you know exactly what it's like to work there is bullshit. Your comment reflects exactly what Silicon Valley nerds think of Zynga externally. They think that Zynga is nothing but people refining skinner boxes for people to play in. You've probably seen one or two talks of Mark Pincus talking about "doing every dirty trick in the book" or something like that. Have you ever met him? Do you even know the last time he worked directly on a game? You're allowed to have whatever opinion you like, but this opinion is bullshit. Your entire comment is ridiculously biased and unreflective of Zynga internally or externally. ------------------------------ So yes, JonnieCache, there is a stigma for working at these companies. reflected by the parent comment. Is that stigma justified? Absolutely not. There are plenty of other reasons not to like developing at Zynga most people don't talk about: * Zynga is not a technology company first. This means that product & revenue decisions are always prioritized over innovating tech. Most developers aren't comfortable with companies like that. * Zynga isn't accepted as a legit member of "games companies" circles. You can't tell your buddy who works building a PC MMO or console FPS that you're in games because you work at Zynga. You'll get laughed out of the room. * Developers are not decision makers at Zynga. Product managers and game designers call all the shots. So if you're writing code, you're not really "making games" in the traditional sense, you're just implementing someone else's spec. So is Zynga the best place for a dev to work in the valley? It isn't the worst. You'll make more money and get more perks than you would working at a startup, but it won't be personally fulfilling. Do you spend all day scheming ways to exploit people? Fuck no, get over it already.

bitops 15y ago

In my experience, it's more like going to a bar and asking "where's so-and-so?" and hearing "oh, yeah, we never see them anymore after they started working for Zynga". The reputation is: long hours, cut-throat environment, back-stabbing execs. Just stating what I've heard.

wavephorm 15y ago

Their brand of "psuedo-entertainment" is in the same category as telemarketing, spam email, infomercials. I can't imagine anybody who works there goes home at the end of the day being proud of finding a new way to rope people into clicking a button 700 times in a row.

JonnieCache 15y ago

I've just realised that my question was kind of ambiguous and could be interpreted to make me look like a dick. As I can't edit it any longer, I'll clarify here: I was asking from an "I wonder if SV people have the balls to give the zynga lot flack for making those shitty games?" point of view, not an "I want to go and work for this company now it's worth $7B but I'm worried that nerds might be mean to me in bars" point of view. Just for the record.