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This is interesting, but it also stands to really weaken actors. If it's anything like the move to streaming platforms, I'd expect to see much lower royalties (

This is interesting, but it also stands to really weaken actors. If it's anything like the move to streaming platforms, I'd expect to see much lower royalties (if any) for the likeness of a famous actor. Also, when the studio owns a likeness rather than a performance, I feel this opens the possibility for actors to lose out big time on the roles they can take. Why would Newline hire an actor they already have the license for, ever again? I'm reminded of the Luddites, who were not anti technology, they just didn't want to lose their positions as skilled, knowledgeable workers when automation entered. Will we see a similar movement of actors losing out as soon as there's enough of a corpus of digital stand ins?

aliqot 4y ago
> This is interesting, but it also stands to really weaken actors. First mover advantage. I look at Bruce Willis cutting this deal like music artists in the 50's-60's who made a good returns on their recording contracts while artists of today sign '360 deals' named as such because the rights owners own everything while the artist makes a pittance, often most profitably from performance and merch.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Supply & Demand. It's the Law.
- neltnerb 4y ago
  If he's decided to retire, for whatever reason, wouldn't it make sense to sell this sort of thing? Like, barring serious reputational issues, why not? You're not doing any work. They do have to pay a different actor to have you grafted onto still right? I don't really see how you avoid this but consider... who watches Bruce Willis films? How old are they? Even if Bruce Willis's likeness is in movies or ads, there's a pretty clear expiration date (ours) even if they could use his likeness forever. It seems pretty rational all around. New actors who can stand in for specialty CGI isn't that unusual right? And even if every actor got some kind of computer life extension and de-aging, the public interest in that actor won't last. Certainly the famous actors are being rational that their likeness may well earn more than their present day abilities can handle (including your ability to care about it). It seems like a limited short term problem until we get to the point where the human-indistinguishable CGI are invented and then people are shoved into the CGI character. I guess sort of. Except what else was Gollum? I have the feeling this is all small scale and overblown. How many people would this really apply to for celebrity status, 50?
  - socialismisok 4y ago
    He's decided to retire because he has aphasia, and is therefore losing his ability to understand and use language.
    - neltnerb 4y ago
      Yes, I know that. It doesn't really impact that people enjoying watching a script read by Bruce Willis's voice and likeness will be commercially viable for a limited time. He's a fun actor, but all actors eventually stop being a good fit for the era. Old cowboy films are fun to watch from a historical perspective, but I sure don't care whether a modern film has a likeness and voice of John Wayne, that's just not much of a selling point anymore. I can see it buying you an extra 20 years maybe, but actors just sort of disappear from the limelight all the time and people don't even notice.
bergenty 4y ago
Maybe it’s a good thing. It’s about time the modern “nobility” comes from some other field.
eastbound 4y ago
“The Congress” is precisely on point: It’s a movie by Robin Wright (2014) about actors signing off their numeric rights to a corporation, and going to a congress to meet other virtualized actors. It made me extremely sad, because it shows what happens when everyone lives in an illusion. It’s really hard to describe the movie, as it’s so unexpected, but so aligned with today’s Bruce Willis signing off his deepfake rights. Trailer: https://youtu.be/zkDyKWKNeaE https://youtu.be/zkDyKWKNeaE
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  Absolutely! I love that film (as much as love Blade Runner, for similar reasons), and it's spot on point. I wrote more about the film and the technology here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33044577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33044577
- hilbertseries 4y ago
  The Congress was written and directed by Ari Folman, it stars Robin Wright.
  - atdrummond 4y ago
    She was the producer and it was a passion project for her. I don’t think it’s somehow inaccurate to call it her film, just as one might call it Folman’s.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  It's based on Stanislaw Lem's "The Congress", and I highly recommend reading it. It's even more depressing
  - phreeza 4y ago
    Quite loosely based on it though, no?
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
MrPatan 4y ago
> Will we see a similar movement of actors losing out as soon as there's enough of a corpus of digital stand ins? The era of the famous actor is ending. For a while they'll use the likeness of current famous actors, like in TFA, but at some point, why deal with them or their heirs? They'll just make their own. And without even the dream of becoming a famous movie star... quite fewer people will go into acting.
_the_inflator 4y ago
There is so much more than simply a digital twin. Marketing, Social Media. It is not "Look, an avatar that looks like actor XYZ!" it is more like "Actor XYZ and his avatar appear on stage". Proof: it is Bruce Willis avatar, not John Doe's. This is not really surprising with all the after effects we put on movies. Stuntmen and stuntwomen double already actors and in some of latest Terminator movies Arnold was played by CGI. This will definitely open new possibilities. Maybe more in the sense of eternal youth. I think that this is what most producers look for, hence all the filters on Insta etc. Harrison Ford was born 1942 and in Bladerunner 2 he does not look like 70+
- rightbyte 4y ago
  > in some of latest Terminator movies Arnold was played by CGI. I think it is emotionally another thing when the character is known the exist in thousands of evil copies. A character that also don't age.
  - ido 4y ago
    And also the character is a robot.

aliqot 4y ago

> This is interesting, but it also stands to really weaken actors. First mover advantage. I look at Bruce Willis cutting this deal like music artists in the 50's-60's who made a good returns on their recording contracts while artists of today sign '360 deals' named as such because the rights owners own everything while the artist makes a pittance, often most profitably from performance and merch.

WalterBright 4y ago
Supply & Demand. It's the Law.
neltnerb 4y ago
If he's decided to retire, for whatever reason, wouldn't it make sense to sell this sort of thing? Like, barring serious reputational issues, why not? You're not doing any work. They do have to pay a different actor to have you grafted onto still right? I don't really see how you avoid this but consider... who watches Bruce Willis films? How old are they? Even if Bruce Willis's likeness is in movies or ads, there's a pretty clear expiration date (ours) even if they could use his likeness forever. It seems pretty rational all around. New actors who can stand in for specialty CGI isn't that unusual right? And even if every actor got some kind of computer life extension and de-aging, the public interest in that actor won't last. Certainly the famous actors are being rational that their likeness may well earn more than their present day abilities can handle (including your ability to care about it). It seems like a limited short term problem until we get to the point where the human-indistinguishable CGI are invented and then people are shoved into the CGI character. I guess sort of. Except what else was Gollum? I have the feeling this is all small scale and overblown. How many people would this really apply to for celebrity status, 50?
- socialismisok 4y ago
  He's decided to retire because he has aphasia, and is therefore losing his ability to understand and use language.
  - neltnerb 4y ago
    Yes, I know that. It doesn't really impact that people enjoying watching a script read by Bruce Willis's voice and likeness will be commercially viable for a limited time. He's a fun actor, but all actors eventually stop being a good fit for the era. Old cowboy films are fun to watch from a historical perspective, but I sure don't care whether a modern film has a likeness and voice of John Wayne, that's just not much of a selling point anymore. I can see it buying you an extra 20 years maybe, but actors just sort of disappear from the limelight all the time and people don't even notice.

bergenty 4y ago

Maybe it’s a good thing. It’s about time the modern “nobility” comes from some other field.

eastbound 4y ago

“The Congress” is precisely on point: It’s a movie by Robin Wright (2014) about actors signing off their numeric rights to a corporation, and going to a congress to meet other virtualized actors. It made me extremely sad, because it shows what happens when everyone lives in an illusion. It’s really hard to describe the movie, as it’s so unexpected, but so aligned with today’s Bruce Willis signing off his deepfake rights. Trailer: https://youtu.be/zkDyKWKNeaE https://youtu.be/zkDyKWKNeaE

DonHopkins 4y ago
Absolutely! I love that film (as much as love Blade Runner, for similar reasons), and it's spot on point. I wrote more about the film and the technology here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33044577 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33044577
hilbertseries 4y ago
The Congress was written and directed by Ari Folman, it stars Robin Wright.
- atdrummond 4y ago
  She was the producer and it was a passion project for her. I don’t think it’s somehow inaccurate to call it her film, just as one might call it Folman’s.
dmitriid 4y ago
It's based on Stanislaw Lem's "The Congress", and I highly recommend reading it. It's even more depressing
- phreeza 4y ago
  Quite loosely based on it though, no?
  - DonHopkins 4y ago

MrPatan 4y ago

> Will we see a similar movement of actors losing out as soon as there's enough of a corpus of digital stand ins? The era of the famous actor is ending. For a while they'll use the likeness of current famous actors, like in TFA, but at some point, why deal with them or their heirs? They'll just make their own. And without even the dream of becoming a famous movie star... quite fewer people will go into acting.

_the_inflator 4y ago

There is so much more than simply a digital twin. Marketing, Social Media. It is not "Look, an avatar that looks like actor XYZ!" it is more like "Actor XYZ and his avatar appear on stage". Proof: it is Bruce Willis avatar, not John Doe's. This is not really surprising with all the after effects we put on movies. Stuntmen and stuntwomen double already actors and in some of latest Terminator movies Arnold was played by CGI. This will definitely open new possibilities. Maybe more in the sense of eternal youth. I think that this is what most producers look for, hence all the filters on Insta etc. Harrison Ford was born 1942 and in Bladerunner 2 he does not look like 70+

rightbyte 4y ago
> in some of latest Terminator movies Arnold was played by CGI. I think it is emotionally another thing when the character is known the exist in thousands of evil copies. A character that also don't age.
- ido 4y ago
  And also the character is a robot.