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>This is a clever way to recruit hackers into the Google Security team. I can't help but wonder how effective something like this actually is. I'm trying to no

>This is a clever way to recruit hackers into the Google Security team. I can't help but wonder how effective something like this actually is. I'm trying to not be overly negative, even though I have nothing nice to say about the company. I just find it really hard to believe that anyone would be sincerely excited to work at a place like Google. I mean, I'm sure the pay and benefits are good for the moment, but it just seems like an unethical move, you know? Drug dealers make tons of money, but it doesn't really entice smart or ethical people to the profession in large numbers. Is wrapping it in some shallow webpage supposed to push people over the edge for some queer reason?

danielheath 4y ago
I mean, it's pretty easy to tell yourself google maps is a social good (because there are lots of good arguments that it is!). Similarly, there are lots of reasons why improving the security of google is a good thing _even if_ you think google itself is evil.
- bawolff 4y ago
  Never mind google maps, its pretty easy to tell yourself google project zero is a social good.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- Morgawr 4y ago
  > Similarly, there are lots of reasons why improving the security of google is a good thing _even if_ you think google itself is evil. Especially when you consider the fact that a lot of stuff that Google security researchers do directly affects and influences (for the better, I'd say) the current industry too. See: Project Zero team, etc. Disclaimer: I work at Google. Opinions are my own, etc etc
  - hulitu 4y ago
    > a lot of stuff that Google security researchers do directly affects and influences (for the better, I'd say) the current industry too. See: Project Zero team, etc. Yeah, and a lot of stuff that Google security researchers do directly affects and influences (for the worse, I'd say) the current (and future) users.
    - saagarjha 4y ago
      Perhaps. Security teams in general (including the ones at Google) are in the business of compromises. Sometimes they end up making the wrong ones. Many of the people I know who are at Google joined, at least in part, to be in a position to help the company do better. Disclaimer: I work on security there.
bananachips123 4y ago
I'm curious as to the main reasons you believe that Google is an unethical and bad company. Is the tracking of all its users are doing the main reason or are there other things?
- hulitu 4y ago
  Do you legitimately think that this tracking is only used for improving the search engine and serving ads ? Just asking.
  - entropy47 4y ago
    What else do you think it would be used for? Are we talking about another capitalism pursuit, or do you think there's something darker going on?
- registeredcorn 4y ago
  I'm not particularly interested in talking about such things. It's clear that we don't agree on that point, which is fine. My concern was (attempting to) focus more on the effectiveness of the program in question.
MattGaiser 4y ago
> Drug dealers make tons of money, but it doesn't really entice smart or ethical people to the profession in large numbers. Assuming the ethical premise as given, you are really glossing over the difference in potential consequences between doing something unethical and something illegal. Specifically the part where the latter can leave you locked up for life.
- registeredcorn 4y ago
  That's a fair point. Whether by ignorance, stupidity, or mere indifference I draw little distinction between ethics and legality. This isn't to say that there isn't a different, but rather that I mush both together because of the three points mentioned. Generally speaking, just because something is legal should not make it right, in the same way that something being illegal, merely by the fact of it being written and codified, does not make it wrong. To put a point on it: I think that some of the actions that Google has taken should have and still should result in prison sentences. As far as I am aware, they have not. That being the case, I certainly would not classify a drug dealer who is not currently in prison being free of wrongdoing.
entropy47 4y ago
What about Google do you think makes working there comparable to pushing drugs? Legitimately curious.
- hulitu 4y ago
  No respect for the end user from both. Google only cares about your data.
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    No respect for the end user? Drug dealers can be some of the realest people out there :)
  - entropy47 4y ago
    This chain is pretty wild to me. I don't know if I'm just too pragmatic, too close to people whose lives have been ruined by drugs, or too much of a big tech apologist - but it seems impossible to me to draw any parallel between drug dealing and working at Google. And I'm just talking ethically - to say nothing of legally. Maybe I'm a consequentialist and you're more of a deontologist? I see a big distinction between "I lost my money, my home and eventually my life" and "I feel my privacy has been infringed on at a conceptual level in the pursuit of ad sales". Do you think there are Google products out there that are actually harmful and ruining people's lives in a concrete way? I would love to hear about how, if yes. The other interpretation is you have a much higher estimation of drug dealers than I do. No dramas with people dealing pot or pills, I'm talking meth and heroin.
    - version_five 4y ago
      "Drug dealers" are the result of regulatory failure - the war on drugs, and a failure of government to provide proper healthcare. People want drugs - no doubt there are some unscrupulous, or evil drug dealers, but it's certainly not a question of some evil cabal poisoning society, it's rational market actors working to meet a demand. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
    - deleted 4y ago
staticassertion 4y ago
> I just find it really hard to believe that anyone would be sincerely excited to work at a place like Google. > but it just seems like an unethical move Whether you can empathize with it or not you must realize that of course people are sincerely excited to work at Google? As for the ethics, at Google security you may be in a position to have some of the largest impact on the most people's personal security. You can say "oh but Google sells ads based on that data" - OK, and you might have a serious problem with that, but the person who's making sure that malicious 3rd parties can't read the GMail accounts of journalists probably doesn't see that as a deal breaker. A lot of people also don't have the luxury to make these choices based on a purely ethical basis. If you're sending money back to your family back home is it a straightforward ethical question of "well Google sells ads, so my family has to starve" ?
- hulitu 4y ago
  > but the person who's making sure that malicious 3rd parties can't read the GMail accounts of journalists But the friendly 3rd party has no issue reading the GMail accounts of journalists. Remember the "Doctor" incident some months ago ?
  - staticassertion 4y ago
    No, I don't know what you are referring to.
    - hulitu 4y ago
      When dad got arrested because he sent pictures of his child to the doctor.
      - staticassertion 4y ago
        Not trying to be an asshole but can you just provide a source and try to make a clear point? Otherwise this conversation is like pulling teeth.
bawolff 4y ago
I think these sort of things are the security equivalent of a company having a really good engineering blog. It probably wont directly lead to new hires, but increases mind share in the long term.
- registeredcorn 4y ago
  I suppose that's a fair assessment. Thanks!
milemi 4y ago
Google chat bots make more sense than this post, so maybe that’s your clue right there.
- saagarjha 4y ago
  Responding to comments that you think aren’t appropriate with your own invective is not particularly appropriate either.
  - milemi 4y ago
    What is up with people here trying to sound like hectoring kindergarten teachers? The post wasn’t inappropriate, it was just nonsense.
    - saagarjha 4y ago
      This was my polite way of saying “don’t reply to bad comments with even worse comments”.
      - milemi 4y ago
        The irony of you repeatedly doing what you’re telling me I shouldn’t do is forever lost on you.
        saagarjha 4y ago
        I don't recall comparing your comments with a chat bot but go off. Or, well, I'd prefer it if you didn't. Sometimes my replies get people to stop but if you'd like to not be in that group I guess I can't stop you.
UncleMeat 4y ago
I work at Google. Nice to meet you. My day job involves making security tools and systems freely available to the entire world in a way that makes Google exactly zero dollars and basically just exists to make the landscape of software a bit safer for everybody. I can understand why some people wouldn't want to work at Google. I cannot understand how somebody couldn't understand how anybody would want to work at Google.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
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danielheath 4y ago

I mean, it's pretty easy to tell yourself google maps is a social good (because there are lots of good arguments that it is!). Similarly, there are lots of reasons why improving the security of google is a good thing _even if_ you think google itself is evil.

bawolff 4y ago
Never mind google maps, its pretty easy to tell yourself google project zero is a social good.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Morgawr 4y ago
> Similarly, there are lots of reasons why improving the security of google is a good thing _even if_ you think google itself is evil. Especially when you consider the fact that a lot of stuff that Google security researchers do directly affects and influences (for the better, I'd say) the current industry too. See: Project Zero team, etc. Disclaimer: I work at Google. Opinions are my own, etc etc
- hulitu 4y ago
  > a lot of stuff that Google security researchers do directly affects and influences (for the better, I'd say) the current industry too. See: Project Zero team, etc. Yeah, and a lot of stuff that Google security researchers do directly affects and influences (for the worse, I'd say) the current (and future) users.
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    Perhaps. Security teams in general (including the ones at Google) are in the business of compromises. Sometimes they end up making the wrong ones. Many of the people I know who are at Google joined, at least in part, to be in a position to help the company do better. Disclaimer: I work on security there.

bananachips123 4y ago

I'm curious as to the main reasons you believe that Google is an unethical and bad company. Is the tracking of all its users are doing the main reason or are there other things?

hulitu 4y ago
Do you legitimately think that this tracking is only used for improving the search engine and serving ads ? Just asking.
- entropy47 4y ago
  What else do you think it would be used for? Are we talking about another capitalism pursuit, or do you think there's something darker going on?
registeredcorn 4y ago
I'm not particularly interested in talking about such things. It's clear that we don't agree on that point, which is fine. My concern was (attempting to) focus more on the effectiveness of the program in question.

MattGaiser 4y ago

> Drug dealers make tons of money, but it doesn't really entice smart or ethical people to the profession in large numbers. Assuming the ethical premise as given, you are really glossing over the difference in potential consequences between doing something unethical and something illegal. Specifically the part where the latter can leave you locked up for life.

registeredcorn 4y ago
That's a fair point. Whether by ignorance, stupidity, or mere indifference I draw little distinction between ethics and legality. This isn't to say that there isn't a different, but rather that I mush both together because of the three points mentioned. Generally speaking, just because something is legal should not make it right, in the same way that something being illegal, merely by the fact of it being written and codified, does not make it wrong. To put a point on it: I think that some of the actions that Google has taken should have and still should result in prison sentences. As far as I am aware, they have not. That being the case, I certainly would not classify a drug dealer who is not currently in prison being free of wrongdoing.

entropy47 4y ago

What about Google do you think makes working there comparable to pushing drugs? Legitimately curious.

hulitu 4y ago
No respect for the end user from both. Google only cares about your data.
- saagarjha 4y ago
  No respect for the end user? Drug dealers can be some of the realest people out there :)
- entropy47 4y ago
  This chain is pretty wild to me. I don't know if I'm just too pragmatic, too close to people whose lives have been ruined by drugs, or too much of a big tech apologist - but it seems impossible to me to draw any parallel between drug dealing and working at Google. And I'm just talking ethically - to say nothing of legally. Maybe I'm a consequentialist and you're more of a deontologist? I see a big distinction between "I lost my money, my home and eventually my life" and "I feel my privacy has been infringed on at a conceptual level in the pursuit of ad sales". Do you think there are Google products out there that are actually harmful and ruining people's lives in a concrete way? I would love to hear about how, if yes. The other interpretation is you have a much higher estimation of drug dealers than I do. No dramas with people dealing pot or pills, I'm talking meth and heroin.
  - version_five 4y ago
    "Drug dealers" are the result of regulatory failure - the war on drugs, and a failure of government to provide proper healthcare. People want drugs - no doubt there are some unscrupulous, or evil drug dealers, but it's certainly not a question of some evil cabal poisoning society, it's rational market actors working to meet a demand. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
  - deleted 4y ago

staticassertion 4y ago

> I just find it really hard to believe that anyone would be sincerely excited to work at a place like Google. > but it just seems like an unethical move Whether you can empathize with it or not you must realize that of course people are sincerely excited to work at Google? As for the ethics, at Google security you may be in a position to have some of the largest impact on the most people's personal security. You can say "oh but Google sells ads based on that data" - OK, and you might have a serious problem with that, but the person who's making sure that malicious 3rd parties can't read the GMail accounts of journalists probably doesn't see that as a deal breaker. A lot of people also don't have the luxury to make these choices based on a purely ethical basis. If you're sending money back to your family back home is it a straightforward ethical question of "well Google sells ads, so my family has to starve" ?

hulitu 4y ago
> but the person who's making sure that malicious 3rd parties can't read the GMail accounts of journalists But the friendly 3rd party has no issue reading the GMail accounts of journalists. Remember the "Doctor" incident some months ago ?
- staticassertion 4y ago
  No, I don't know what you are referring to.
  - hulitu 4y ago
    When dad got arrested because he sent pictures of his child to the doctor.
    - staticassertion 4y ago
      Not trying to be an asshole but can you just provide a source and try to make a clear point? Otherwise this conversation is like pulling teeth.

bawolff 4y ago

I think these sort of things are the security equivalent of a company having a really good engineering blog. It probably wont directly lead to new hires, but increases mind share in the long term.

registeredcorn 4y ago
I suppose that's a fair assessment. Thanks!

milemi 4y ago

Google chat bots make more sense than this post, so maybe that’s your clue right there.

saagarjha 4y ago
Responding to comments that you think aren’t appropriate with your own invective is not particularly appropriate either.
- milemi 4y ago
  What is up with people here trying to sound like hectoring kindergarten teachers? The post wasn’t inappropriate, it was just nonsense.
  - saagarjha 4y ago
    This was my polite way of saying “don’t reply to bad comments with even worse comments”.
    - milemi 4y ago
      The irony of you repeatedly doing what you’re telling me I shouldn’t do is forever lost on you.
      - saagarjha 4y ago
        I don't recall comparing your comments with a chat bot but go off. Or, well, I'd prefer it if you didn't. Sometimes my replies get people to stop but if you'd like to not be in that group I guess I can't stop you.

UncleMeat 4y ago

I work at Google. Nice to meet you. My day job involves making security tools and systems freely available to the entire world in a way that makes Google exactly zero dollars and basically just exists to make the landscape of software a bit safer for everybody. I can understand why some people wouldn't want to work at Google. I cannot understand how somebody couldn't understand how anybody would want to work at Google.

deleted 4y ago
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deleted 4y ago
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