4 ms·

aka everyone who lives in an apartment building in every major city in the world which will never have enough power or jacks to charge everyones cars.

by dmix 4y ago

yellowapple 4y ago
"Never" is a strong word. There's no fundamental reason why most or even all parking spaces couldn't be electrified even with today's technology, let alone in the next decade or so.
- dmix 4y ago
  Good luck getting apartment buildings built >10yrs ago to invest in a major project like that. Which means most of them. Or do you mean your local/federal government is going to give massive subsidies to one of the largest infrastructure projects on private property in history? And get this done in a decade? My building was made in 2012 and I walked around counting the number of A/C outlets, there was about one for every 25-30 cars. And those are standard outlets.
  - ulfw 4y ago
    Apartment owners will have no choice but to invest if they don't want apartment values to drop in the future. Time will solve those issues.
    - MrFoof 4y ago
      I think you vastly underestimate the number of small landlords, as well as smaller local PMCs -- particularly for older duplexes, triples, and tenements -- which will never spend the money. Go to places like Boston, where you will find plenty of apartments where your unit still might only have 60A electric service -- if not 40A (I've seen plenty)! You'll find complexes built of multiple 4-6 unit buildings, built 70+ years ago (if not 100+), with dozens of units like that. We're talking places with natural gas hotbox clothes dryers that were installed 30 years ago! Places still with lead paint. So long as someone is still renting them, they won't do anything.
    - MisterSandman 4y ago
      A friend is currently paying $1000/month for a single room in a 4bed2bath apartment with no parking and terribly maintained kitchens. In many places, landlords have no incentives to push for better QoL - electric charging is a pipe dream. This is in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, which is currently undergoing a severe housing crisis.
      - yellowapple 4y ago
        That in and of itself is a problem worth solving.
  - yellowapple 4y ago
    > Good luck getting apartment buildings built >10yrs ago to invest in a major project like that. They seem to have little issue justifying major upgrades inside the apartments themselves. > Or do you mean your local/federal government is going to give massive subsidies to one of the largest infrastructure projects on private property in history? 1. Hyperbole much? There have surely been more expensive such projects, even before factoring in the resulting economies of scale. 2. I can think of far worse things on which we blow our tax dollars. > And those are standard outlets. If you're plugged in for 8+ hours a day, standard outlets are likely all you really need - especially if your destination also has electrified outlets.
- toast0 4y ago
  I mean, there's not really a reason it couldn't be done. But there are plenty of reasons it's unlikely to be done. Mostly cost of materials and cost of labor, but also difficulty of apportioning costs, lack of demand, and prioritizing other things. If I were a car company, I'd certainly make some EV only cars, Tesla showed there's a premium market there, and government policy is clearly focused. But I'd also be focused on making a lot of plug-in hybrids, they can fill a lot of niches and help pull up the cafe averages which provides design flexibility. Speaking of design flexibility, I'd have a team looking into popular vehicle shapes from 30 years ago that vanished to find out which ones fuel efficiency standards killed (small pickups for one, maybe others?) and see if EV or PHEV can move the numbers enough to bring those back. Certainly, some old shapes are dead because people don't want them anymore, but others died of unnatural causes.
  - viraptor 4y ago
    > Mostly cost of materials and cost of labor, but also difficulty of apportioning costs, lack of demand, and prioritizing other things. I don't see those as issues. Cost - charge for energy + x% to cover costs. Apportioning costs - usage solves this. Lack of demand - do N spaces at a time leaving space for expansion depending on usage. Prioritising - if they want tenants in 20 years, it will become a natural priority.
abudabi123 4y ago
I see Tesla owners park their cars in apartment building, no probs. A home owner can fully their charge an EV alternative brand to Tesla but not Toyota for ten dollars, not the U.S. dollar. Does WSJ have a pattern of reporting on EVs vs fossil fuels or hydrogen?
- dmix 4y ago
  I'm talking about every car getting sold. Not the typical Tesa owners. Even a dozen like in a typical EV lot in an entire apartment building would be insufficient if it's the only option. People are seriously downplaying how massive this investment is going to be in infrastructure. This isn't like building highways across farmlands in the 1950s. These are already-built apartment buildings where the property owners are wary of doing minimal investments in their properties combined with already strain grids. Not to mention every single gov project is 10yrs late and 4x the initial cost.
  - moistly 4y ago
    We’re looking at massive investment regardless. If we don’t stop warming, massive investment. If we intend to stop warming, massive investment. We are paying the deferred, true cost of our carbon one way or the other.
thisarticle 4y ago
We have six in our building of hundreds of cars and there’s still open spots most of the time. They charge fast and people move their cars. It’s not a big deal.
- dmix 4y ago
  Six out of how many spots? We had 4 in our building out of over a hundred.
  - thisarticle 4y ago
    Out of hundreds of cars, so hundreds of spots. The six spots are dedicated to people with charges and you have to move your car to another part of the structure once you’re done charging.
grecy 4y ago
People said exactly the same thing when gasoline cars first came around.... there will never be enough gas stations in enough locations for everyone to switch over from horses...
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  No they did not, you are making things up.

aka everyone who lives in an apartment building in every major city in the world which will never have enough power or jacks to charge everyones cars.

by dmix 4y ago

aka everyone who lives in an apartment building in every major city in the world which will never have enough power or jacks to charge everyones cars.

yellowapple 4y ago

"Never" is a strong word. There's no fundamental reason why most or even all parking spaces couldn't be electrified even with today's technology, let alone in the next decade or so.

dmix 4y ago
Good luck getting apartment buildings built >10yrs ago to invest in a major project like that. Which means most of them. Or do you mean your local/federal government is going to give massive subsidies to one of the largest infrastructure projects on private property in history? And get this done in a decade? My building was made in 2012 and I walked around counting the number of A/C outlets, there was about one for every 25-30 cars. And those are standard outlets.
- ulfw 4y ago
  Apartment owners will have no choice but to invest if they don't want apartment values to drop in the future. Time will solve those issues.
  - MrFoof 4y ago
    I think you vastly underestimate the number of small landlords, as well as smaller local PMCs -- particularly for older duplexes, triples, and tenements -- which will never spend the money. Go to places like Boston, where you will find plenty of apartments where your unit still might only have 60A electric service -- if not 40A (I've seen plenty)! You'll find complexes built of multiple 4-6 unit buildings, built 70+ years ago (if not 100+), with dozens of units like that. We're talking places with natural gas hotbox clothes dryers that were installed 30 years ago! Places still with lead paint. So long as someone is still renting them, they won't do anything.
  - MisterSandman 4y ago
    A friend is currently paying $1000/month for a single room in a 4bed2bath apartment with no parking and terribly maintained kitchens. In many places, landlords have no incentives to push for better QoL - electric charging is a pipe dream. This is in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, which is currently undergoing a severe housing crisis.
    - yellowapple 4y ago
      That in and of itself is a problem worth solving.
- yellowapple 4y ago
  > Good luck getting apartment buildings built >10yrs ago to invest in a major project like that. They seem to have little issue justifying major upgrades inside the apartments themselves. > Or do you mean your local/federal government is going to give massive subsidies to one of the largest infrastructure projects on private property in history? 1. Hyperbole much? There have surely been more expensive such projects, even before factoring in the resulting economies of scale. 2. I can think of far worse things on which we blow our tax dollars. > And those are standard outlets. If you're plugged in for 8+ hours a day, standard outlets are likely all you really need - especially if your destination also has electrified outlets.
toast0 4y ago
I mean, there's not really a reason it couldn't be done. But there are plenty of reasons it's unlikely to be done. Mostly cost of materials and cost of labor, but also difficulty of apportioning costs, lack of demand, and prioritizing other things. If I were a car company, I'd certainly make some EV only cars, Tesla showed there's a premium market there, and government policy is clearly focused. But I'd also be focused on making a lot of plug-in hybrids, they can fill a lot of niches and help pull up the cafe averages which provides design flexibility. Speaking of design flexibility, I'd have a team looking into popular vehicle shapes from 30 years ago that vanished to find out which ones fuel efficiency standards killed (small pickups for one, maybe others?) and see if EV or PHEV can move the numbers enough to bring those back. Certainly, some old shapes are dead because people don't want them anymore, but others died of unnatural causes.
- viraptor 4y ago
  > Mostly cost of materials and cost of labor, but also difficulty of apportioning costs, lack of demand, and prioritizing other things. I don't see those as issues. Cost - charge for energy + x% to cover costs. Apportioning costs - usage solves this. Lack of demand - do N spaces at a time leaving space for expansion depending on usage. Prioritising - if they want tenants in 20 years, it will become a natural priority.

abudabi123 4y ago

I see Tesla owners park their cars in apartment building, no probs. A home owner can fully their charge an EV alternative brand to Tesla but not Toyota for ten dollars, not the U.S. dollar. Does WSJ have a pattern of reporting on EVs vs fossil fuels or hydrogen?

dmix 4y ago
I'm talking about every car getting sold. Not the typical Tesa owners. Even a dozen like in a typical EV lot in an entire apartment building would be insufficient if it's the only option. People are seriously downplaying how massive this investment is going to be in infrastructure. This isn't like building highways across farmlands in the 1950s. These are already-built apartment buildings where the property owners are wary of doing minimal investments in their properties combined with already strain grids. Not to mention every single gov project is 10yrs late and 4x the initial cost.
- moistly 4y ago
  We’re looking at massive investment regardless. If we don’t stop warming, massive investment. If we intend to stop warming, massive investment. We are paying the deferred, true cost of our carbon one way or the other.

thisarticle 4y ago

We have six in our building of hundreds of cars and there’s still open spots most of the time. They charge fast and people move their cars. It’s not a big deal.

dmix 4y ago
Six out of how many spots? We had 4 in our building out of over a hundred.
- thisarticle 4y ago
  Out of hundreds of cars, so hundreds of spots. The six spots are dedicated to people with charges and you have to move your car to another part of the structure once you’re done charging.

grecy 4y ago

People said exactly the same thing when gasoline cars first came around.... there will never be enough gas stations in enough locations for everyone to switch over from horses...

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
No they did not, you are making things up.