5 ms·

Toyota CEO says moving to all EVs would leave some customers behind

15 points by hhs 4y ago

dmix 4y ago
aka everyone who lives in an apartment building in every major city in the world which will never have enough power or jacks to charge everyones cars.
- yellowapple 4y ago
  "Never" is a strong word. There's no fundamental reason why most or even all parking spaces couldn't be electrified even with today's technology, let alone in the next decade or so.
  - dmix 4y ago
    Good luck getting apartment buildings built >10yrs ago to invest in a major project like that. Which means most of them. Or do you mean your local/federal government is going to give massive subsidies to one of the largest infrastructure projects on private property in history? And get this done in a decade? My building was made in 2012 and I walked around counting the number of A/C outlets, there was about one for every 25-30 cars. And those are standard outlets.
    - ulfw 4y ago
      Apartment owners will have no choice but to invest if they don't want apartment values to drop in the future. Time will solve those issues.
      - MrFoof 4y ago
        I think you vastly underestimate the number of small landlords, as well as smaller local PMCs -- particularly for older duplexes, triples, and tenements -- which will never spend the money. Go to places like Boston, where you will find plenty of apartments where your unit still might only have 60A electric service -- if not 40A (I've seen plenty)! You'll find complexes built of multiple 4-6 unit buildings, built 70+ years ago (if not 100+), with dozens of units like that. We're talking places with natural gas hotbox clothes dryers that were installed 30 years ago! Places still with lead paint. So long as someone is still renting them, they won't do anything.
      - MisterSandman 4y ago
        A friend is currently paying $1000/month for a single room in a 4bed2bath apartment with no parking and terribly maintained kitchens. In many places, landlords have no incentives to push for better QoL - electric charging is a pipe dream. This is in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, which is currently undergoing a severe housing crisis.
        yellowapple 4y ago
        That in and of itself is a problem worth solving.
    - yellowapple 4y ago
      > Good luck getting apartment buildings built >10yrs ago to invest in a major project like that. They seem to have little issue justifying major upgrades inside the apartments themselves. > Or do you mean your local/federal government is going to give massive subsidies to one of the largest infrastructure projects on private property in history? 1. Hyperbole much? There have surely been more expensive such projects, even before factoring in the resulting economies of scale. 2. I can think of far worse things on which we blow our tax dollars. > And those are standard outlets. If you're plugged in for 8+ hours a day, standard outlets are likely all you really need - especially if your destination also has electrified outlets.
  - toast0 4y ago
    I mean, there's not really a reason it couldn't be done. But there are plenty of reasons it's unlikely to be done. Mostly cost of materials and cost of labor, but also difficulty of apportioning costs, lack of demand, and prioritizing other things. If I were a car company, I'd certainly make some EV only cars, Tesla showed there's a premium market there, and government policy is clearly focused. But I'd also be focused on making a lot of plug-in hybrids, they can fill a lot of niches and help pull up the cafe averages which provides design flexibility. Speaking of design flexibility, I'd have a team looking into popular vehicle shapes from 30 years ago that vanished to find out which ones fuel efficiency standards killed (small pickups for one, maybe others?) and see if EV or PHEV can move the numbers enough to bring those back. Certainly, some old shapes are dead because people don't want them anymore, but others died of unnatural causes.
    - viraptor 4y ago
      > Mostly cost of materials and cost of labor, but also difficulty of apportioning costs, lack of demand, and prioritizing other things. I don't see those as issues. Cost - charge for energy + x% to cover costs. Apportioning costs - usage solves this. Lack of demand - do N spaces at a time leaving space for expansion depending on usage. Prioritising - if they want tenants in 20 years, it will become a natural priority.
- abudabi123 4y ago
  I see Tesla owners park their cars in apartment building, no probs. A home owner can fully their charge an EV alternative brand to Tesla but not Toyota for ten dollars, not the U.S. dollar. Does WSJ have a pattern of reporting on EVs vs fossil fuels or hydrogen?
  - dmix 4y ago
    I'm talking about every car getting sold. Not the typical Tesa owners. Even a dozen like in a typical EV lot in an entire apartment building would be insufficient if it's the only option. People are seriously downplaying how massive this investment is going to be in infrastructure. This isn't like building highways across farmlands in the 1950s. These are already-built apartment buildings where the property owners are wary of doing minimal investments in their properties combined with already strain grids. Not to mention every single gov project is 10yrs late and 4x the initial cost.
    - moistly 4y ago
      We’re looking at massive investment regardless. If we don’t stop warming, massive investment. If we intend to stop warming, massive investment. We are paying the deferred, true cost of our carbon one way or the other.
- thisarticle 4y ago
  We have six in our building of hundreds of cars and there’s still open spots most of the time. They charge fast and people move their cars. It’s not a big deal.
  - dmix 4y ago
    Six out of how many spots? We had 4 in our building out of over a hundred.
    - thisarticle 4y ago
      Out of hundreds of cars, so hundreds of spots. The six spots are dedicated to people with charges and you have to move your car to another part of the structure once you’re done charging.
- grecy 4y ago
  People said exactly the same thing when gasoline cars first came around.... there will never be enough gas stations in enough locations for everyone to switch over from horses...
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    No they did not, you are making things up.
krallja 4y ago
Toyota CEO Tries To Downplay Toyota Market Forecasting Mistake
- MisterSandman 4y ago
  Toyota didn't jump on the EV trend because EVs kinda suck in Japan. Electricity is mostly imported and increasing reliance on it is a bad idea for Japan. ICE is worse, but Hydrogen is better (Japan is an island), which is why Toyota has been pushing Hydrogen.
  - Rzor 4y ago
    But they also sell cars to the rest of the world...
i67vw3 4y ago
https://archive.ph/Gq1PR https://archive.ph/Gq1PR The article paints a different picture than the article's own headline.... I might be the one 'left' behind. The current EV's in the market are all spyware [1](sending gps location), and can be shut off by remote control [2](like stolen tesla's in ukraine). Same case is for petrol/diesel powered cars but right now I can buy toned down petrol car version (cheapest one in the lineup) which does not contain any spyware and has buttons and knobs to control AC, Radio, Volume etc [1]https://themarkup.org/the-breakdown/2022/07/27/who-is-collecting-data-from-your-car https://themarkup.org/the-breakdown/2022/07/27/who-is-collec... [2]https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/01/europe/russia-farm-vehicles-ukraine-disabled-melitopol-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/01/europe/russia-farm-vehicl... (not really EV tesla but diesel powered John Deere tractors, but pretty much same case) [3]https://electrek.co/2022/07/26/tesla-ransom-customer-over-80-miles-battery-range/ https://electrek.co/2022/07/26/tesla-ransom-customer-over-80...
Proven 4y ago
_trackno5 4y ago
I honestly don't understand the all or nothing push towards EV. I definitely agree we should move to cleaner forms of energy and EVs can help with that, depending on how we source the energy to power them. But even if it's completely clean energy, why should become reliant in a single form of powering vehicles? It makes no sense. I'm a fan of Toyota's offering of hybrids and plug-in hybrids. Imo it would make more sense to have most cars switch to hybrids, since it'll take many years for infrastructure for full EVs to be widespread, than just keep pushing for this all or nothing approach. But agree with the other commenter, Toyota needs to step up its game in EVs to be able to compete in the current environment.
- krallja 4y ago
  > a single form of powering vehicles Electricity is optionality. Electricity can be generated from a vast number of sources. Coal, wood, natural gas, nuke, hydro, PV, wind, waves, geothermal, hydrogen fuel cell, hydrogen turbine, four mules turning a crank… Even burning diesel or gasoline to charge an EV can be more efficient than burning it in an engine in a vehicle, because the generator can be run at its optimal RPM 100% of the time, and doesn't need a complicated (& lossy) transmission.
voakbasda 4y ago
I will never buy a vehicle that contains any kind of OTA capability. Presently, I think that means buying an old model ICE vehicle, as it seems current model years have all embraced that bullshit. I am certain that no EV will ever run fully offline. In that regard, true consumer car “ownership” seems to be coming to an abrupt end.

15 points by hhs 4y ago

dmix 4y ago

aka everyone who lives in an apartment building in every major city in the world which will never have enough power or jacks to charge everyones cars.

yellowapple 4y ago
"Never" is a strong word. There's no fundamental reason why most or even all parking spaces couldn't be electrified even with today's technology, let alone in the next decade or so.
- dmix 4y ago
  Good luck getting apartment buildings built >10yrs ago to invest in a major project like that. Which means most of them. Or do you mean your local/federal government is going to give massive subsidies to one of the largest infrastructure projects on private property in history? And get this done in a decade? My building was made in 2012 and I walked around counting the number of A/C outlets, there was about one for every 25-30 cars. And those are standard outlets.
  - ulfw 4y ago
    Apartment owners will have no choice but to invest if they don't want apartment values to drop in the future. Time will solve those issues.
    - MrFoof 4y ago
      I think you vastly underestimate the number of small landlords, as well as smaller local PMCs -- particularly for older duplexes, triples, and tenements -- which will never spend the money. Go to places like Boston, where you will find plenty of apartments where your unit still might only have 60A electric service -- if not 40A (I've seen plenty)! You'll find complexes built of multiple 4-6 unit buildings, built 70+ years ago (if not 100+), with dozens of units like that. We're talking places with natural gas hotbox clothes dryers that were installed 30 years ago! Places still with lead paint. So long as someone is still renting them, they won't do anything.
    - MisterSandman 4y ago
      A friend is currently paying $1000/month for a single room in a 4bed2bath apartment with no parking and terribly maintained kitchens. In many places, landlords have no incentives to push for better QoL - electric charging is a pipe dream. This is in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada, which is currently undergoing a severe housing crisis.
      - yellowapple 4y ago
        That in and of itself is a problem worth solving.
  - yellowapple 4y ago
    > Good luck getting apartment buildings built >10yrs ago to invest in a major project like that. They seem to have little issue justifying major upgrades inside the apartments themselves. > Or do you mean your local/federal government is going to give massive subsidies to one of the largest infrastructure projects on private property in history? 1. Hyperbole much? There have surely been more expensive such projects, even before factoring in the resulting economies of scale. 2. I can think of far worse things on which we blow our tax dollars. > And those are standard outlets. If you're plugged in for 8+ hours a day, standard outlets are likely all you really need - especially if your destination also has electrified outlets.
- toast0 4y ago
  I mean, there's not really a reason it couldn't be done. But there are plenty of reasons it's unlikely to be done. Mostly cost of materials and cost of labor, but also difficulty of apportioning costs, lack of demand, and prioritizing other things. If I were a car company, I'd certainly make some EV only cars, Tesla showed there's a premium market there, and government policy is clearly focused. But I'd also be focused on making a lot of plug-in hybrids, they can fill a lot of niches and help pull up the cafe averages which provides design flexibility. Speaking of design flexibility, I'd have a team looking into popular vehicle shapes from 30 years ago that vanished to find out which ones fuel efficiency standards killed (small pickups for one, maybe others?) and see if EV or PHEV can move the numbers enough to bring those back. Certainly, some old shapes are dead because people don't want them anymore, but others died of unnatural causes.
  - viraptor 4y ago
    > Mostly cost of materials and cost of labor, but also difficulty of apportioning costs, lack of demand, and prioritizing other things. I don't see those as issues. Cost - charge for energy + x% to cover costs. Apportioning costs - usage solves this. Lack of demand - do N spaces at a time leaving space for expansion depending on usage. Prioritising - if they want tenants in 20 years, it will become a natural priority.
abudabi123 4y ago
I see Tesla owners park their cars in apartment building, no probs. A home owner can fully their charge an EV alternative brand to Tesla but not Toyota for ten dollars, not the U.S. dollar. Does WSJ have a pattern of reporting on EVs vs fossil fuels or hydrogen?
- dmix 4y ago
  I'm talking about every car getting sold. Not the typical Tesa owners. Even a dozen like in a typical EV lot in an entire apartment building would be insufficient if it's the only option. People are seriously downplaying how massive this investment is going to be in infrastructure. This isn't like building highways across farmlands in the 1950s. These are already-built apartment buildings where the property owners are wary of doing minimal investments in their properties combined with already strain grids. Not to mention every single gov project is 10yrs late and 4x the initial cost.
  - moistly 4y ago
    We’re looking at massive investment regardless. If we don’t stop warming, massive investment. If we intend to stop warming, massive investment. We are paying the deferred, true cost of our carbon one way or the other.
thisarticle 4y ago
We have six in our building of hundreds of cars and there’s still open spots most of the time. They charge fast and people move their cars. It’s not a big deal.
- dmix 4y ago
  Six out of how many spots? We had 4 in our building out of over a hundred.
  - thisarticle 4y ago
    Out of hundreds of cars, so hundreds of spots. The six spots are dedicated to people with charges and you have to move your car to another part of the structure once you’re done charging.
grecy 4y ago
People said exactly the same thing when gasoline cars first came around.... there will never be enough gas stations in enough locations for everyone to switch over from horses...
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  No they did not, you are making things up.

krallja 4y ago

Toyota CEO Tries To Downplay Toyota Market Forecasting Mistake

MisterSandman 4y ago
Toyota didn't jump on the EV trend because EVs kinda suck in Japan. Electricity is mostly imported and increasing reliance on it is a bad idea for Japan. ICE is worse, but Hydrogen is better (Japan is an island), which is why Toyota has been pushing Hydrogen.
- Rzor 4y ago
  But they also sell cars to the rest of the world...

i67vw3 4y ago

https://archive.ph/Gq1PR https://archive.ph/Gq1PR The article paints a different picture than the article's own headline.... I might be the one 'left' behind. The current EV's in the market are all spyware [1](sending gps location), and can be shut off by remote control [2](like stolen tesla's in ukraine). Same case is for petrol/diesel powered cars but right now I can buy toned down petrol car version (cheapest one in the lineup) which does not contain any spyware and has buttons and knobs to control AC, Radio, Volume etc [1]https://themarkup.org/the-breakdown/2022/07/27/who-is-collecting-data-from-your-car https://themarkup.org/the-breakdown/2022/07/27/who-is-collec... [2]https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/01/europe/russia-farm-vehicles-ukraine-disabled-melitopol-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/05/01/europe/russia-farm-vehicl... (not really EV tesla but diesel powered John Deere tractors, but pretty much same case) [3]https://electrek.co/2022/07/26/tesla-ransom-customer-over-80-miles-battery-range/ https://electrek.co/2022/07/26/tesla-ransom-customer-over-80...

Proven 4y ago

_trackno5 4y ago

I honestly don't understand the all or nothing push towards EV. I definitely agree we should move to cleaner forms of energy and EVs can help with that, depending on how we source the energy to power them. But even if it's completely clean energy, why should become reliant in a single form of powering vehicles? It makes no sense. I'm a fan of Toyota's offering of hybrids and plug-in hybrids. Imo it would make more sense to have most cars switch to hybrids, since it'll take many years for infrastructure for full EVs to be widespread, than just keep pushing for this all or nothing approach. But agree with the other commenter, Toyota needs to step up its game in EVs to be able to compete in the current environment.

krallja 4y ago
> a single form of powering vehicles Electricity is optionality. Electricity can be generated from a vast number of sources. Coal, wood, natural gas, nuke, hydro, PV, wind, waves, geothermal, hydrogen fuel cell, hydrogen turbine, four mules turning a crank… Even burning diesel or gasoline to charge an EV can be more efficient than burning it in an engine in a vehicle, because the generator can be run at its optimal RPM 100% of the time, and doesn't need a complicated (& lossy) transmission.

voakbasda 4y ago

I will never buy a vehicle that contains any kind of OTA capability. Presently, I think that means buying an old model ICE vehicle, as it seems current model years have all embraced that bullshit. I am certain that no EV will ever run fully offline. In that regard, true consumer car “ownership” seems to be coming to an abrupt end.