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> +1 I was also shocked to hear in a news conference the EU president Ursula von der Leyen threaten the Italian voters right before the election. This is the v

> +1 I was also shocked to hear in a news conference the EU president Ursula von der Leyen threaten the Italian voters right before the election. This is the very first time I've heard such a thing. Do you have a source showcasing what you claim to be threats?

miguelazo 4y ago
tarakat 4y ago
During a conference on Thursday at Princeton University, an attendant pointed out to von der Leyen that “figures close to Putin” were among candidates for the upcoming legislative election on Sunday. “We’ll see,” she replied. “If things go in a difficult direction — and I’ve spoken about Hungary and Poland — we have the tools.” - https://www.politico.eu/article/italy-election-candidate-warning-ursula-von-der-leyen/ https://www.politico.eu/article/italy-election-candidate-war...
- arinlen 4y ago
  > “If things go in a difficult direction — and I’ve spoken about Hungary and Poland — we have the tools.” Please explain what led you to interpret this as a threat of any form. The Orban reference was pretty clear. From the article: > "This is a clear reference to the ability of the European Commission to cut funds allocated to member countries when they are deemed to be violating the rule of law."
  - miguelazo 4y ago
    Cutting funds allocated to member countries for not voting the way you want seems like a pretty clear threat to me!
    - detaro 4y ago
      They can't cut funding for "not voting the way they want". Funding can be held back if governments violate treaty obligations, after a lengthy process. (I.e. the other referenced examples have clear reasons why the process is running, and it's not because who the voters voted for ...)
      - tarakat 4y ago
        And maybe von der Leyen will lobby for a stricter reading of those treaties if the wrong party gets elected, which is the subtext of her words, obvious to all but the most willfully obtuse.
        detaro 4y ago
        So some lawyers will spend some extra years fighting over some edge cases, with very unclear results if its not something serious but a fishing operation as you suggest. Or some actual legal issues will have to be resolved. Scary.
        miguelazo 4y ago
        Love that you finally admit they were threats, and now are just trying to minimize them. Go ask the Germans how empty Biden’s threats to end the gas pipelines they depended on were.
        detaro 4y ago
        No, I merely argue that if you read them to be threats in that sense, they are pretty pointless threats. And it thus makes little sense to read them as such, because they would be such unimpressive threats. Your US/Germany comparison doesn't work, since that's an entirely different situation. For starters, a state like the US can actually apply pressure or use force, because there isn't an established strong framework saying it can't nor anything directly enforcing what little there is. US enforced sanctions over the pipeline construction because it didn't like the pipeline, nothing Germany can do directly. (And if you want to assume the recent sabotage was the US, pretty much the same applies) The commission is just not an independent state-level actor in that way. It's actually constrained by a state-like legal framework around it, granting it limited powers for specific purposes. Outside of those, it can and will be reigned in very quickly.
  - yrgulation 4y ago
    But who oversees the rule of law within the eu commission? Ursula is infamously corrupt, incompetent and rejected by germans, who sanctions the eu commission when it itself violates the “rule of law”? Dont get me wrong, i agree with the principle, but the eu needs reform. Each time anyone dares raise such desire they are either immediately pushed back or threatened with sanctions.
    - detaro 4y ago
      > But who oversees the rule of law within the eu commission EU courts are the judical oversight, and the EU parliament can remove the commission at any time (legislative oversight).
      - yrgulation 4y ago
        I know the theory but my question was more philosophical. Corruption isnt just taking bribes. Urusula’s comments are akin to coercing voters into voting against their preference and are a clear violation of treaties whereby the eu has no right to intervene in the sovereign voting process of member states. Its not like italians were bribed or forced into voting a certain way. That means ursula is abusing a position of power in favour of certain political parties with the threat of cutting funding if their new leader isnt docile enough. That is corruption and the perfectly fine eu courts will never sanction her for it.
        detaro 4y ago
        I think that's interpreting too much into the comment, especially with the reference to Poland and Hungary: It's saying that if the governments cause problems with EU law, the commission has tools to handle that. The commission does not have the power to just cut funding without a reason, and if it ever attempts to do so the EU courts will put a stop to it. The treaty violation processes are slow, intentionally. (And the majority of member states is quite happy with that, since most of them run into that occasionally, and also has all the reasons to not stand for that) "We'll pay close attention if you stick to the laws" is pretty much the worst the commission can really threaten a government, which isn't really all that much if there is nothing serious to punish.
PatentlyDC123 4y ago
I found this article to cover the quote in her recent speech about "tools." [0] [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eus-von-der-leyen-delivers-veiled-warning-italys-right-wing-2022-09-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eus-von-der-leyen-deliv...
- arinlen 4y ago
  Here's the quote from the article. > My approach is that whatever democratic government is willing to work with us, we're working together," von der Leyen said at Princeton University in the United States on Thursday, responding to a question on whether there were any concerns with regard to the upcoming elections in Italy. > "If things go in a difficult direction, I've spoken about Hungary and Poland, we have tools," she added. So a liberal democratic organization is prepared to protect itself from sabotage from fascist organizations that are actively manipulated by external actors to undermine them. That's your threat.
  - miguelazo 4y ago
    I assumed that you were using "liberal democratic organization" in jest, but now I am not sure. Would you like to elaborate on your "actively maniuplated by external actors" statement? Is this something like the Russiagate hoax? Are you suggesting Italian voters aren't capable of voting in their own interests?
    - mhoad 4y ago
      It’s probably more related to the fact that 70% of the country didn’t actually vote for them, it’s hardly the will of the people.
      - amadeuspagel 4y ago
        More then half of the country voted for her coalition.
        4y ago

miguelazo 4y ago

tarakat 4y ago

During a conference on Thursday at Princeton University, an attendant pointed out to von der Leyen that “figures close to Putin” were among candidates for the upcoming legislative election on Sunday. “We’ll see,” she replied. “If things go in a difficult direction — and I’ve spoken about Hungary and Poland — we have the tools.” - https://www.politico.eu/article/italy-election-candidate-warning-ursula-von-der-leyen/ https://www.politico.eu/article/italy-election-candidate-war...

arinlen 4y ago
> “If things go in a difficult direction — and I’ve spoken about Hungary and Poland — we have the tools.” Please explain what led you to interpret this as a threat of any form. The Orban reference was pretty clear. From the article: > "This is a clear reference to the ability of the European Commission to cut funds allocated to member countries when they are deemed to be violating the rule of law."
- miguelazo 4y ago
  Cutting funds allocated to member countries for not voting the way you want seems like a pretty clear threat to me!
  - detaro 4y ago
    They can't cut funding for "not voting the way they want". Funding can be held back if governments violate treaty obligations, after a lengthy process. (I.e. the other referenced examples have clear reasons why the process is running, and it's not because who the voters voted for ...)
    - tarakat 4y ago
      And maybe von der Leyen will lobby for a stricter reading of those treaties if the wrong party gets elected, which is the subtext of her words, obvious to all but the most willfully obtuse.
      - detaro 4y ago
        So some lawyers will spend some extra years fighting over some edge cases, with very unclear results if its not something serious but a fishing operation as you suggest. Or some actual legal issues will have to be resolved. Scary.
        miguelazo 4y ago
        Love that you finally admit they were threats, and now are just trying to minimize them. Go ask the Germans how empty Biden’s threats to end the gas pipelines they depended on were.
        detaro 4y ago
        No, I merely argue that if you read them to be threats in that sense, they are pretty pointless threats. And it thus makes little sense to read them as such, because they would be such unimpressive threats. Your US/Germany comparison doesn't work, since that's an entirely different situation. For starters, a state like the US can actually apply pressure or use force, because there isn't an established strong framework saying it can't nor anything directly enforcing what little there is. US enforced sanctions over the pipeline construction because it didn't like the pipeline, nothing Germany can do directly. (And if you want to assume the recent sabotage was the US, pretty much the same applies) The commission is just not an independent state-level actor in that way. It's actually constrained by a state-like legal framework around it, granting it limited powers for specific purposes. Outside of those, it can and will be reigned in very quickly.
- yrgulation 4y ago
  But who oversees the rule of law within the eu commission? Ursula is infamously corrupt, incompetent and rejected by germans, who sanctions the eu commission when it itself violates the “rule of law”? Dont get me wrong, i agree with the principle, but the eu needs reform. Each time anyone dares raise such desire they are either immediately pushed back or threatened with sanctions.
  - detaro 4y ago
    > But who oversees the rule of law within the eu commission EU courts are the judical oversight, and the EU parliament can remove the commission at any time (legislative oversight).
    - yrgulation 4y ago
      I know the theory but my question was more philosophical. Corruption isnt just taking bribes. Urusula’s comments are akin to coercing voters into voting against their preference and are a clear violation of treaties whereby the eu has no right to intervene in the sovereign voting process of member states. Its not like italians were bribed or forced into voting a certain way. That means ursula is abusing a position of power in favour of certain political parties with the threat of cutting funding if their new leader isnt docile enough. That is corruption and the perfectly fine eu courts will never sanction her for it.
      - detaro 4y ago
        I think that's interpreting too much into the comment, especially with the reference to Poland and Hungary: It's saying that if the governments cause problems with EU law, the commission has tools to handle that. The commission does not have the power to just cut funding without a reason, and if it ever attempts to do so the EU courts will put a stop to it. The treaty violation processes are slow, intentionally. (And the majority of member states is quite happy with that, since most of them run into that occasionally, and also has all the reasons to not stand for that) "We'll pay close attention if you stick to the laws" is pretty much the worst the commission can really threaten a government, which isn't really all that much if there is nothing serious to punish.

PatentlyDC123 4y ago

I found this article to cover the quote in her recent speech about "tools." [0] [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eus-von-der-leyen-delivers-veiled-warning-italys-right-wing-2022-09-23/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eus-von-der-leyen-deliv...

arinlen 4y ago
Here's the quote from the article. > My approach is that whatever democratic government is willing to work with us, we're working together," von der Leyen said at Princeton University in the United States on Thursday, responding to a question on whether there were any concerns with regard to the upcoming elections in Italy. > "If things go in a difficult direction, I've spoken about Hungary and Poland, we have tools," she added. So a liberal democratic organization is prepared to protect itself from sabotage from fascist organizations that are actively manipulated by external actors to undermine them. That's your threat.
- miguelazo 4y ago
  I assumed that you were using "liberal democratic organization" in jest, but now I am not sure. Would you like to elaborate on your "actively maniuplated by external actors" statement? Is this something like the Russiagate hoax? Are you suggesting Italian voters aren't capable of voting in their own interests?
  - mhoad 4y ago
    It’s probably more related to the fact that 70% of the country didn’t actually vote for them, it’s hardly the will of the people.
    - amadeuspagel 4y ago
      More then half of the country voted for her coalition.
      - 4y ago