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What you are saying basically amounts to "My political opponents are Nazis and so is anyone who associates with them, so they should all be silenced." And yet

by jrsj 4y ago

What you are saying basically amounts to "My political opponents are Nazis and so is anyone who associates with them, so they should all be silenced." And yet you're not taking the extreme position there. Interesting how that works.

lazyeye 4y ago
Its the only form of hate that's still acceptable. Ascribing the worst possible motives to the people you disagree with.
- kennywinker 4y ago
  Sometimes it's ascribing the worst possible motive to someone you disagree with - sometimes you disagree with someone who has the worst possible motives. You're saying it's the former, I'm saying recently we've seen a lot of the latter.
  - lazyeye 4y ago
    Maybe look at the numbers, if 50% plus have the "worst possible motives" then maybe its the former.
    - kennywinker 4y ago
      63% of the italian population turned up to vote. Of those 63%, just 26% voted for georgia melani’s party. She has a mandate from 16.4% of italians (26% of 63%). Next you’ll be defending putin, you know he wins in a landslide every election right?
      - lazyeye 4y ago
        Why would I defend Putin? I'm guessing those numbers are fairly typical for the ruling party in Italy where elections are typically fairly fragmented and chaotic. So that result is likely just as legitimate as any previous result. I'm also guessing the overwhelming majority of people that voted in this election aren't nazis.
        kennywinker 4y ago
        By your “look at the numbers, 50%” logic, putin is probably good (77% of the vote), and italy could easily have elected a fascist (26% of the vote or 16% of the population). Turns out the “numbers” aren’t a very good indicator. I’d suggest we should look to what they say for signs of autocratic, kleptocratic, fascist, or nazi ideas.
        lazyeye 4y ago
        As far as I'm aware, Italy has free and fair elections and Russia doesnt so apples, oranges etc As to whether she is a "fascist" (your word) I'II wait and see. I certainly wont pay any attention to the predictable left-wing, media-accelerated hyperbole.
kennywinker 4y ago
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with: 1. The premise that ideologies exist in the world that are so extreme and violent in their nature that they should receive zero tolerance (e.g. nazism, fascism). 2. The premise that people who tolerate an ideology are tainted by that association. 3. That Georgia Meloni is a fascist. Because 1 and 2 are not extremist views. They're held quite widely, and I don't think there are many people who believe you should sit down and listen when a nazi talks. You say that my view is "My political opponents are Nazis" - but that's not what I've said at all. I believe that nazis are nazis, fascists are fascist, and these SPECIFIC ideas are beyond tolerance. Not just any idea I disagree with - there are plenty of ideas that I am politically opposed to that I strongly disagree with but I will gladly tolerate. Just not core premises like "do these people deserve to live" or "do these people deserve dignity".

by jrsj 4y ago

lazyeye 4y ago

Its the only form of hate that's still acceptable. Ascribing the worst possible motives to the people you disagree with.

kennywinker 4y ago
Sometimes it's ascribing the worst possible motive to someone you disagree with - sometimes you disagree with someone who has the worst possible motives. You're saying it's the former, I'm saying recently we've seen a lot of the latter.
- lazyeye 4y ago
  Maybe look at the numbers, if 50% plus have the "worst possible motives" then maybe its the former.
  - kennywinker 4y ago
    63% of the italian population turned up to vote. Of those 63%, just 26% voted for georgia melani’s party. She has a mandate from 16.4% of italians (26% of 63%). Next you’ll be defending putin, you know he wins in a landslide every election right?
    - lazyeye 4y ago
      Why would I defend Putin? I'm guessing those numbers are fairly typical for the ruling party in Italy where elections are typically fairly fragmented and chaotic. So that result is likely just as legitimate as any previous result. I'm also guessing the overwhelming majority of people that voted in this election aren't nazis.
      - kennywinker 4y ago
        By your “look at the numbers, 50%” logic, putin is probably good (77% of the vote), and italy could easily have elected a fascist (26% of the vote or 16% of the population). Turns out the “numbers” aren’t a very good indicator. I’d suggest we should look to what they say for signs of autocratic, kleptocratic, fascist, or nazi ideas.
        lazyeye 4y ago
        As far as I'm aware, Italy has free and fair elections and Russia doesnt so apples, oranges etc As to whether she is a "fascist" (your word) I'II wait and see. I certainly wont pay any attention to the predictable left-wing, media-accelerated hyperbole.

kennywinker 4y ago

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with: 1. The premise that ideologies exist in the world that are so extreme and violent in their nature that they should receive zero tolerance (e.g. nazism, fascism). 2. The premise that people who tolerate an ideology are tainted by that association. 3. That Georgia Meloni is a fascist. Because 1 and 2 are not extremist views. They're held quite widely, and I don't think there are many people who believe you should sit down and listen when a nazi talks. You say that my view is "My political opponents are Nazis" - but that's not what I've said at all. I believe that nazis are nazis, fascists are fascist, and these SPECIFIC ideas are beyond tolerance. Not just any idea I disagree with - there are plenty of ideas that I am politically opposed to that I strongly disagree with but I will gladly tolerate. Just not core premises like "do these people deserve to live" or "do these people deserve dignity".