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> VS Code is a proprietary, spyware-riddled, resource-wasting worked example of why "modern" software sucks. Perspectives like these (and others in the thread)

by johnfn 4y ago

> VS Code is a proprietary, spyware-riddled, resource-wasting worked example of why "modern" software sucks. Perspectives like these (and others in the thread) remind me that there exists a separate cohort of engineers from people like myself which have absolutely polar opposite views. I respect your opinions, though I couldn't disagree more with them! :) Well, except the bit about VSCode having "spyware". That's not true, and it weakens your point. It does have telemetry - I suspect that's what you mean, and you should just call it that instead.

modernerd 4y ago
> and you should just call it that instead. And then turn it off using the built-in setting: https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry#_disable-telemetry-reporting https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry#_dis...
- aeze 4y ago
  You could also, if you wish, audit the telemetry events and determine if it's worth turning off - or decide that it's okay with you that they're using that data to improve their free product. https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry#_viewing-all-telemetry-events https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry#_vie... https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry#_gdpr-and-vs-code https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry#_gdp...
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Searching for excuses to let the company's product spy on you sounds like a huge waste of time.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    I could also just decide that it's okay to use a free editor that doesn't report on me in the first place. I don't need to audit exactly what information vim sends off and evaluate whether it's too much, because "none" is really easy to decide on.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  - https://www.roboleary.net/tools/2022/04/20/vscode-telemetry.html - "It looks like you cannot shut telemetry off 100%. These settings will opt you of most data sharing scenarios; but not all data sharing scenarios." - Apparently even VSCodium can't kill it all - https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/blob/master/DOCS.md#disable-telemetry
jrm4 4y ago
No. Microsoft's general reputation for spying on its users renders "spyware" a reasonable shorthand for what it either does now, or perhaps is reasonably likely to do at some time in the future. I would fall back to the softer "telemetry" ONLY IF they were to provide some sort of genuinely reliable affirmation that it's not spying, which I don't think they could do today absent legal or other generally obvious incentive.
- johnfn 4y ago
  I mean, you can say whatever you want - you only diminish your own argument by doing so. It's like the boy who cried wolf - if you keep shouting "spyware" with no true evidence of spyware, then by the time that "spyware" actually is happening, no one is going to care. > what it either does now Spyware is defined (Google) as "a form of malware that hides on your device, monitors your activity, and steals sensitive information like bank details and passwords." Please furnish any example of Microsoft stealing sensitive information like bank details and passwords via VSCode. > perhaps is reasonably likely to do at some time in the future An imagined hypothetical does not help your argument.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    > Spyware is defined (Google) as "a form of malware that hides on your device, monitors your activity, and steals sensitive information like bank details and passwords." Please furnish any example of Microsoft stealing sensitive information like bank details and passwords via VSCode. Well, yes, of course Google would say that. If you ask DuckDuckGo to define spyware, it offers these: > Software that secretly gathers information about a person or organization. > programs that surreptitiously monitor and report the actions of a computer user. Which of course is exactly what VSC does.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - CrendKing 4y ago
      That's wrong. They key element of "spyware" is that it monitors and reports outside of it's own realm, and cause damage with the data. Like a keylogger logs keys even it's not the active program. What VSCode does is only monitoring user action within VSCode for technicality. Until you can provide evidence otherwise, calling it "spyware" is act of defamation. Also, if software with telemetry is spyware, there is no mainstream browser clean. Feel free to use forks like Tor Browser or VSCodium if you like, but expanding the scope of spyware unreasonably only gonna cause confusion to average people.
sophacles 4y ago
Ah telemetry - you mean software that sends back information about what I'm doing to some 3rd party? Unlike spyware which is software that sends back information about what I'm doing to some third party. Totally different, got it.
- johnfn 4y ago
  I said this to someone else, but spyware is defined (Google) as "a form of malware that hides on your device, monitors your activity, and steals sensitive information like bank details and passwords." Please furnish any example of Microsoft stealing sensitive information like bank details and passwords via VSCode.
  - sophacles 4y ago
    I don't want MS to monitor me. Anything that enables them to track me better is sensitive because I don't want to be monitored.
    - CrendKing 4y ago
      No one stops you from using VSCodium. But associating a software with spyware (a black/white action) should not but tied to how much telemetry (a spectrum) they collect. It's about what type of data they collect and what they do with the data. If they deliberately use that data to cause any damage (black/white), you can call it spyware. But if they only use that to improve their software, no, you shouldn't.
      - treadmill 4y ago
        It secretly collects data (spies), so it is spyware. Which part do you not get?
      - sophacles 4y ago
        There have been reports that the "telemetry" is sent after a user takes the actions to disable it. That means that a user has information about them reported in a way that is: 1. against their will 2. without their knowledge That is spying. The software that does it is spyware. Whether or not they intend to use it for anything other than improving the software - if they secretly take data from me without my consent, it's spying. Whether or not you think it's OK for them to take data, if they do so without my consent, it's spying. Whether or not you really like VSCode, if they secretly take data without my consent it's spying. Software that spies is spyware. It's that simple. Trying to haggle in the margins of one definition of a vague term is not a very strong argument to convince me otherwise. Also: about the first part of your comment - I stop me from using VSCodium. I'm not interested.
j-bos 4y ago
Vscodium is pretty great though.

by johnfn 4y ago

modernerd 4y ago

> and you should just call it that instead. And then turn it off using the built-in setting: https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry#_disable-telemetry-reporting https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry#_dis...

aeze 4y ago
You could also, if you wish, audit the telemetry events and determine if it's worth turning off - or decide that it's okay with you that they're using that data to improve their free product. https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry#_viewing-all-telemetry-events https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry#_vie... https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry#_gdpr-and-vs-code https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/getstarted/telemetry#_gdp...
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  Searching for excuses to let the company's product spy on you sounds like a huge waste of time.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  I could also just decide that it's okay to use a free editor that doesn't report on me in the first place. I don't need to audit exactly what information vim sends off and evaluate whether it's too much, because "none" is really easy to decide on.
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
- https://www.roboleary.net/tools/2022/04/20/vscode-telemetry.html - "It looks like you cannot shut telemetry off 100%. These settings will opt you of most data sharing scenarios; but not all data sharing scenarios." - Apparently even VSCodium can't kill it all - https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/blob/master/DOCS.md#disable-telemetry

jrm4 4y ago

No. Microsoft's general reputation for spying on its users renders "spyware" a reasonable shorthand for what it either does now, or perhaps is reasonably likely to do at some time in the future. I would fall back to the softer "telemetry" ONLY IF they were to provide some sort of genuinely reliable affirmation that it's not spying, which I don't think they could do today absent legal or other generally obvious incentive.

johnfn 4y ago
I mean, you can say whatever you want - you only diminish your own argument by doing so. It's like the boy who cried wolf - if you keep shouting "spyware" with no true evidence of spyware, then by the time that "spyware" actually is happening, no one is going to care. > what it either does now Spyware is defined (Google) as "a form of malware that hides on your device, monitors your activity, and steals sensitive information like bank details and passwords." Please furnish any example of Microsoft stealing sensitive information like bank details and passwords via VSCode. > perhaps is reasonably likely to do at some time in the future An imagined hypothetical does not help your argument.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  > Spyware is defined (Google) as "a form of malware that hides on your device, monitors your activity, and steals sensitive information like bank details and passwords." Please furnish any example of Microsoft stealing sensitive information like bank details and passwords via VSCode. Well, yes, of course Google would say that. If you ask DuckDuckGo to define spyware, it offers these: > Software that secretly gathers information about a person or organization. > programs that surreptitiously monitor and report the actions of a computer user. Which of course is exactly what VSC does.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - CrendKing 4y ago
    That's wrong. They key element of "spyware" is that it monitors and reports outside of it's own realm, and cause damage with the data. Like a keylogger logs keys even it's not the active program. What VSCode does is only monitoring user action within VSCode for technicality. Until you can provide evidence otherwise, calling it "spyware" is act of defamation. Also, if software with telemetry is spyware, there is no mainstream browser clean. Feel free to use forks like Tor Browser or VSCodium if you like, but expanding the scope of spyware unreasonably only gonna cause confusion to average people.

sophacles 4y ago

Ah telemetry - you mean software that sends back information about what I'm doing to some 3rd party? Unlike spyware which is software that sends back information about what I'm doing to some third party. Totally different, got it.

johnfn 4y ago
I said this to someone else, but spyware is defined (Google) as "a form of malware that hides on your device, monitors your activity, and steals sensitive information like bank details and passwords." Please furnish any example of Microsoft stealing sensitive information like bank details and passwords via VSCode.
- sophacles 4y ago
  I don't want MS to monitor me. Anything that enables them to track me better is sensitive because I don't want to be monitored.
  - CrendKing 4y ago
    No one stops you from using VSCodium. But associating a software with spyware (a black/white action) should not but tied to how much telemetry (a spectrum) they collect. It's about what type of data they collect and what they do with the data. If they deliberately use that data to cause any damage (black/white), you can call it spyware. But if they only use that to improve their software, no, you shouldn't.
    - treadmill 4y ago
      It secretly collects data (spies), so it is spyware. Which part do you not get?
    - sophacles 4y ago
      There have been reports that the "telemetry" is sent after a user takes the actions to disable it. That means that a user has information about them reported in a way that is: 1. against their will 2. without their knowledge That is spying. The software that does it is spyware. Whether or not they intend to use it for anything other than improving the software - if they secretly take data from me without my consent, it's spying. Whether or not you think it's OK for them to take data, if they do so without my consent, it's spying. Whether or not you really like VSCode, if they secretly take data without my consent it's spying. Software that spies is spyware. It's that simple. Trying to haggle in the margins of one definition of a vague term is not a very strong argument to convince me otherwise. Also: about the first part of your comment - I stop me from using VSCodium. I'm not interested.

j-bos 4y ago

Vscodium is pretty great though.