4 ms·

What is it about European countries that make them so reasonable and open to progress? This is great news, because for once there's actually a law on pirating t

by Archio 15y ago

What is it about European countries that make them so reasonable and open to progress? This is great news, because for once there's actually a law on pirating that's based on research, unlike US laws centered around "job creators" losing money.

larrik 15y ago
Because in Europe you have lots of very different countries that your mind cherry-picks the best parts out of when you hear these stories. Actually living in Europe requires that you pick one country, and involves compromising on something. (Germany doesn't really have freedom of speech. UK has big brother issues and crazy libel laws. France hates the internet. Sweden wants everyone to think they hate men. Etc.) Of course, I don't hear a lot of negatives about Switzerland. Except from the IRS, of course :)
- VMG 15y ago
  And let's not forget the economy..
- adimitrov 15y ago
  > Of course, I don't hear a lot of negatives about Switzerland. Except from the IRS, of course :) That's your opinion because you're not an "Ausländer" (foreigner) living in Switzerland. See: * http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/Council_of_Europe_attacks_racism_in_Switzerland.html?cid=9576 http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/Council_of_Europe_attac... * http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials/Parliamentary_elections_2007/News/Peoples_Party_accused_of_racist_campaign.html?cid=245112 http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials/Parliamentary_elections... * http://www.humanrights.ch/en/Switzerland/Human-Rights-in-Internal-Affairs/Racism/Studies/idart_4552-content.html http://www.humanrights.ch/en/Switzerland/Human-Rights-in-Int... I was thinking of moving to Switzerland, but in the end I had the feeling that there's a significant portion of the population who would like to keep it "Swiss." Also, immigration laws are rather harsh.
  - algorias 15y ago
    >there's a significant portion of the population who would like to keep it "Swiss." s/significant/vocal and you're closer to the mark. The right wing party here routinely attempts to shift blame of every conceivable problem to the fact that there are lots of foreigners living here. It's not that there aren't real issues (e.g. abuse of asylum rights), but they tend to be blown vastly out of proportion.
- o1iver 15y ago
  Germany doesn't really have freedom of speech What do you mean? (I am German)
  - mhd 15y ago
    The whole "Volksverhetzung" thingamajig, i.e. you're not allowed to deny the Holocaust, display swastikas etc. The US has its hate crime laws, but these usually don't restrict free speech in the same way. A few European countries share these specific restrictions by the way (or at least some of them). Including Switzerland.
    - waqf 15y ago
      And in the U.S. you aren't allowed to advocate the violent overthrow of the government, to shout fire in a crowded theater, to distribute child porn or to conspire to blow up airliners. The only difference is that U.S. culture teaches you to believe that those exceptions "aren't covered by free speech", i.e. they don't count because we said so ... just as o1iver thinks about Holocaust-denying.
      - tedunangst 15y ago
        Except your examples aren't really even examples of speech, free or otherwise. Walking around with a swastika on your arm is quite different than actively holocausting people.
        waqf 15y ago
        For convenience of argument I will retract the child porn example, but "conspiring", "shouting" and "advocating" are much closer to a common-sense understanding of the word "speech" than is "walking around with [any particular symbol] on your arm". Unless you totally missed the words "conspire" and "advocate" in my post, I'm not at all sure what you're trying to say.
        tedunangst 15y ago
- mhd 15y ago
  Lately Switzerland seems to have a small right-wing problem, first banning the construction of minarets and then voting to deport criminal foreigners. A few of my Swiss friends found this quite embarrassing and attributed it to the vagaries of direct democratic processes and voter turnout. But as you say, each place has its crazy idiosyncrasies, and in the grand total, Switzerland scores pretty highly in the list of countries to live in. Unless you hate mountains and/or chocolate, of course. (Or they won't let you in, which might be an issue)
  - CaptainZapp 15y ago
    That's the price you pay for direct democracy. Sometimes really, really bad laws get accepted by the population in a referendum. Actually the Swiss Popular Party (SVP, the right wing party) didn't do too well in the most recent elections. While they hoped to achieve > 30% of the popular vote, they're hovering around ~26%. A lot of their candidates for the smaller house of parliament (Ständerat, would be the Senate in the US) got actually hammered. So from a perspective of reason things actually seem to be looking brighter.
  - danssig 15y ago
    Why would it be a problem to deport criminal foreigners? And if you think Switzerland is hard to get into, try to get into Denmark.
    - tedunangst 15y ago
      Because what usually happens (or what makes people angry anyway) is that someone who's been living in the country for ten years gets deported because of a shoplifting offense also committed ten years ago. Violates the principle of no ex post facto laws.
      - danssig 15y ago
        Any citations on that? I've heard people claim that but in actual practice I believe it's only used against career criminals. The issue I've heard complained about is that if there is a career criminal dad, he can cause the whole family to end up getting deported (though I'm not sure that one is true either).
- arethuza 15y ago
  "UK has big brother issues and crazy libel laws" Nitpick: England has crazy libel laws.
- rmc 15y ago
  I don't hear a lot of negatives about Switzerland It's probably one of the most expensive countries in the world to visit. They probably hide a lot of the money of corrupt governments and world leaders. Also this might be good or bad, but it's all very neat and tidy. All the roads in rural areas are all very good and all the grass is clipped. Makes the place feel totally tamed. (Though good roads is a plus, just makes for some not-as-interesting motorbike touring)
  - getsat 15y ago
    > It's probably one of the most expensive countries This is said by everyone about every country ever. Is this fact, or does my previous sentence cover it?
- roel_v 15y ago
  "Of course, I don't hear a lot of negatives about Switzerland." Apart from being a country that gets much of its wealth from hiding the blood money of dictators and criminals? Right.
- kzrdude 15y ago
  "Sweden wants everyone to think they hate men." What does this mean?
- JoshTriplett 15y ago
  > Of course, I don't hear a lot of negatives about Switzerland. Take a look at the tax rates.
rickmb 15y ago
As far as copyright is concerned, it has nothing to do with "reasonable and open to progress". The main differences are: * The powerful copyright-industry mostly resides in the US. European countries that have somewhat of a copyright industry of their own (France, UK) are considerable less "reasonable". * Success in European elections is way less dependent on corporate financing. Lobbying is way less effective if the politicians you target don't need your money. It's not less corrupt, but more about influence and favors, and the US copyright lobby has relatively little to offer in that respect. In other words: the copyright mafia has less politicians in their pockets, and therefor less influence on public policy.
Tycho 15y ago
Because they import most of their entertainment form America, maybe?

by Archio 15y ago

larrik 15y ago

Because in Europe you have lots of very different countries that your mind cherry-picks the best parts out of when you hear these stories. Actually living in Europe requires that you pick one country, and involves compromising on something. (Germany doesn't really have freedom of speech. UK has big brother issues and crazy libel laws. France hates the internet. Sweden wants everyone to think they hate men. Etc.) Of course, I don't hear a lot of negatives about Switzerland. Except from the IRS, of course :)

VMG 15y ago
And let's not forget the economy..
adimitrov 15y ago
> Of course, I don't hear a lot of negatives about Switzerland. Except from the IRS, of course :) That's your opinion because you're not an "Ausländer" (foreigner) living in Switzerland. See: * http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/Council_of_Europe_attacks_racism_in_Switzerland.html?cid=9576 http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/Council_of_Europe_attac... * http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials/Parliamentary_elections_2007/News/Peoples_Party_accused_of_racist_campaign.html?cid=245112 http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials/Parliamentary_elections... * http://www.humanrights.ch/en/Switzerland/Human-Rights-in-Internal-Affairs/Racism/Studies/idart_4552-content.html http://www.humanrights.ch/en/Switzerland/Human-Rights-in-Int... I was thinking of moving to Switzerland, but in the end I had the feeling that there's a significant portion of the population who would like to keep it "Swiss." Also, immigration laws are rather harsh.
- algorias 15y ago
  >there's a significant portion of the population who would like to keep it "Swiss." s/significant/vocal and you're closer to the mark. The right wing party here routinely attempts to shift blame of every conceivable problem to the fact that there are lots of foreigners living here. It's not that there aren't real issues (e.g. abuse of asylum rights), but they tend to be blown vastly out of proportion.
o1iver 15y ago
Germany doesn't really have freedom of speech What do you mean? (I am German)
- mhd 15y ago
  The whole "Volksverhetzung" thingamajig, i.e. you're not allowed to deny the Holocaust, display swastikas etc. The US has its hate crime laws, but these usually don't restrict free speech in the same way. A few European countries share these specific restrictions by the way (or at least some of them). Including Switzerland.
  - waqf 15y ago
    And in the U.S. you aren't allowed to advocate the violent overthrow of the government, to shout fire in a crowded theater, to distribute child porn or to conspire to blow up airliners. The only difference is that U.S. culture teaches you to believe that those exceptions "aren't covered by free speech", i.e. they don't count because we said so ... just as o1iver thinks about Holocaust-denying.
    - tedunangst 15y ago
      Except your examples aren't really even examples of speech, free or otherwise. Walking around with a swastika on your arm is quite different than actively holocausting people.
      - waqf 15y ago
        For convenience of argument I will retract the child porn example, but "conspiring", "shouting" and "advocating" are much closer to a common-sense understanding of the word "speech" than is "walking around with [any particular symbol] on your arm". Unless you totally missed the words "conspire" and "advocate" in my post, I'm not at all sure what you're trying to say.
        tedunangst 15y ago
mhd 15y ago
Lately Switzerland seems to have a small right-wing problem, first banning the construction of minarets and then voting to deport criminal foreigners. A few of my Swiss friends found this quite embarrassing and attributed it to the vagaries of direct democratic processes and voter turnout. But as you say, each place has its crazy idiosyncrasies, and in the grand total, Switzerland scores pretty highly in the list of countries to live in. Unless you hate mountains and/or chocolate, of course. (Or they won't let you in, which might be an issue)
- CaptainZapp 15y ago
  That's the price you pay for direct democracy. Sometimes really, really bad laws get accepted by the population in a referendum. Actually the Swiss Popular Party (SVP, the right wing party) didn't do too well in the most recent elections. While they hoped to achieve > 30% of the popular vote, they're hovering around ~26%. A lot of their candidates for the smaller house of parliament (Ständerat, would be the Senate in the US) got actually hammered. So from a perspective of reason things actually seem to be looking brighter.
- danssig 15y ago
  Why would it be a problem to deport criminal foreigners? And if you think Switzerland is hard to get into, try to get into Denmark.
  - tedunangst 15y ago
    Because what usually happens (or what makes people angry anyway) is that someone who's been living in the country for ten years gets deported because of a shoplifting offense also committed ten years ago. Violates the principle of no ex post facto laws.
    - danssig 15y ago
      Any citations on that? I've heard people claim that but in actual practice I believe it's only used against career criminals. The issue I've heard complained about is that if there is a career criminal dad, he can cause the whole family to end up getting deported (though I'm not sure that one is true either).
arethuza 15y ago
"UK has big brother issues and crazy libel laws" Nitpick: England has crazy libel laws.
rmc 15y ago
I don't hear a lot of negatives about Switzerland It's probably one of the most expensive countries in the world to visit. They probably hide a lot of the money of corrupt governments and world leaders. Also this might be good or bad, but it's all very neat and tidy. All the roads in rural areas are all very good and all the grass is clipped. Makes the place feel totally tamed. (Though good roads is a plus, just makes for some not-as-interesting motorbike touring)
- getsat 15y ago
  > It's probably one of the most expensive countries This is said by everyone about every country ever. Is this fact, or does my previous sentence cover it?
roel_v 15y ago
"Of course, I don't hear a lot of negatives about Switzerland." Apart from being a country that gets much of its wealth from hiding the blood money of dictators and criminals? Right.
kzrdude 15y ago
"Sweden wants everyone to think they hate men." What does this mean?
JoshTriplett 15y ago
> Of course, I don't hear a lot of negatives about Switzerland. Take a look at the tax rates.

rickmb 15y ago

As far as copyright is concerned, it has nothing to do with "reasonable and open to progress". The main differences are: * The powerful copyright-industry mostly resides in the US. European countries that have somewhat of a copyright industry of their own (France, UK) are considerable less "reasonable". * Success in European elections is way less dependent on corporate financing. Lobbying is way less effective if the politicians you target don't need your money. It's not less corrupt, but more about influence and favors, and the US copyright lobby has relatively little to offer in that respect. In other words: the copyright mafia has less politicians in their pockets, and therefor less influence on public policy.

Tycho 15y ago

Because they import most of their entertainment form America, maybe?