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> VPNs don’t help privacy at all Or course they do, I'm so tired of seeing posts like this when really what you mean is that it's not perfect privacy and there

> VPNs don’t help privacy at all Or course they do, I'm so tired of seeing posts like this when really what you mean is that it's not perfect privacy and therefore you don't like it.

sascha_sl 4y ago
No as a rule. They just replace your ISP with a VPN company. Which is the two is more shady is something you have to figure out, keeping in mind that a subsection of the internet just stops working or turns the aggressiveness of their anti-bot protections up to the maximum on a VPN.
inetknght 4y ago
> Or course they do Let me compare an ISP spying vs a VPN spying: 1. You make DNS request about example.com. Your ISP sees this. Your ISP can see what websites you "might" visit. 2. You connect to 1.2.3.4. Your ISP sees this. Your ISP can see what websites you "did" visit. 3. You request some data and receive some data. Your ISP sees the size of the data. If it's not encrypted, it can also see the content. Your ISP can see (at least) the size of objects that you requested -- which is enough to fingerprint many specific contents. Okay so not using a VPN gives effectively zero privacy. Let's look at a VPN: 1. You connect to a VPN (and let's assume your connection doesn't "leak" insomuch as now _all_ network traffic goes through the VPN). Your ISP can see this. 2. You make DNS request about example.com. Your VPN sees this and your ISP can see a network packet. Your VPN can see what websites you "might" visit, your ISP can't. 2. You connect to 1.2.3.4. Your VPN sees this. Your VPN can see what websites you "did" visit. Your ISP still sees traffic to the VPN. 3. You request some data and receive some data. Your VPN sees the size of the data, and your ISP only sees the aggregate-size of data across all of your sessions. If it's not encrypted, your VPN can also see the content but your ISP should still only see aggregate size. Your VPN can see (at least) the size of objects that you requested -- which is enough to fingerprint many specific contents. Your ISP will have a tough time fingerprinting content from specific websites. 4. Your ISP can note that you have a high amount of traffic, possibly note that the traffic is going to a known VPN destination, and that your "normal" traffic is now gone. Now, your VPN can see all the stuff that your ISP used to see. In addition, your ISP can now determine that you might be doing something illegal, suspicious, or at the very least "enterprise grade" and demand more money. Have you really gained more privacy?
- crtasm 4y ago
  > your ISP can now determine that you might be doing something illegal, suspicious and my neighbours can determine I might be doing something illegal when I close my curtains, sure.
- tzs 4y ago
  > Have you really gained more privacy? No, but you have lost less privacy. The amount of loss of privacy you incur when some particular item of personal information about you is revealed to another party often depends on how much other information that party has about you.
- Schroedingersat 4y ago
  If the ISP is legally protected from any inquiry or transparency into what they do with the data and is systematically incompetent about protecting it and the vpn exists in a country with good privacy laws, then yeah.
- postalrat 4y ago
  You increased the number of choices you can make regarding your privacy.
- Dayshine 4y ago
  Your isp is legally resident in the country most likely to want to spy on you. There are also very few isps per country, so it's less work for the attacker to cover everyone they care about. There are vast numbers of vpns, so total coverage is impossible. They are also very likely to be in a different legal jurisdiction so it's non trivial to do. So, yes, you have, by making yourself a harder target despite having the same amount of centralisation on your part
  - xani_ 4y ago
    Same with most VPN providers. Just expands the search from "ask ISP" to "ask ISP, they tell government its a VPN company, ask VPN company". Now, sure, they could "just" delete logs, but their government can "just" tell them not to, or even tell them to live send the logs to them directly. So it's really "which country's government you trust".
pkulak 4y ago
Of course they do? They are a tool that routes traffic through a third party. That can be anywhere from terrible to fantastic for privacy, with everything in between. There's nothing "of course" about it.
shubb 4y ago
One of the main use cases today for VPNs is to pirate movies or access geo-blocked content. That and dodgy hotel wifi. The adversary is netflix or a IP rights enforcement company, and the user doesn't care what their ISP or a state could observe. For what they are used for, they are fine. If you are worried about state or megacorp spying, the solution is less technical and more political.

> VPNs don’t help privacy at all Or course they do, I'm so tired of seeing posts like this when really what you mean is that it's not perfect privacy and therefore you don't like it.

sascha_sl 4y ago

No as a rule. They just replace your ISP with a VPN company. Which is the two is more shady is something you have to figure out, keeping in mind that a subsection of the internet just stops working or turns the aggressiveness of their anti-bot protections up to the maximum on a VPN.

inetknght 4y ago

> Or course they do Let me compare an ISP spying vs a VPN spying: 1. You make DNS request about example.com. Your ISP sees this. Your ISP can see what websites you "might" visit. 2. You connect to 1.2.3.4. Your ISP sees this. Your ISP can see what websites you "did" visit. 3. You request some data and receive some data. Your ISP sees the size of the data. If it's not encrypted, it can also see the content. Your ISP can see (at least) the size of objects that you requested -- which is enough to fingerprint many specific contents. Okay so not using a VPN gives effectively zero privacy. Let's look at a VPN: 1. You connect to a VPN (and let's assume your connection doesn't "leak" insomuch as now _all_ network traffic goes through the VPN). Your ISP can see this. 2. You make DNS request about example.com. Your VPN sees this and your ISP can see a network packet. Your VPN can see what websites you "might" visit, your ISP can't. 2. You connect to 1.2.3.4. Your VPN sees this. Your VPN can see what websites you "did" visit. Your ISP still sees traffic to the VPN. 3. You request some data and receive some data. Your VPN sees the size of the data, and your ISP only sees the aggregate-size of data across all of your sessions. If it's not encrypted, your VPN can also see the content but your ISP should still only see aggregate size. Your VPN can see (at least) the size of objects that you requested -- which is enough to fingerprint many specific contents. Your ISP will have a tough time fingerprinting content from specific websites. 4. Your ISP can note that you have a high amount of traffic, possibly note that the traffic is going to a known VPN destination, and that your "normal" traffic is now gone. Now, your VPN can see all the stuff that your ISP used to see. In addition, your ISP can now determine that you might be doing something illegal, suspicious, or at the very least "enterprise grade" and demand more money. Have you really gained more privacy?

crtasm 4y ago
> your ISP can now determine that you might be doing something illegal, suspicious and my neighbours can determine I might be doing something illegal when I close my curtains, sure.
tzs 4y ago
> Have you really gained more privacy? No, but you have lost less privacy. The amount of loss of privacy you incur when some particular item of personal information about you is revealed to another party often depends on how much other information that party has about you.
Schroedingersat 4y ago
If the ISP is legally protected from any inquiry or transparency into what they do with the data and is systematically incompetent about protecting it and the vpn exists in a country with good privacy laws, then yeah.
postalrat 4y ago
You increased the number of choices you can make regarding your privacy.
Dayshine 4y ago
Your isp is legally resident in the country most likely to want to spy on you. There are also very few isps per country, so it's less work for the attacker to cover everyone they care about. There are vast numbers of vpns, so total coverage is impossible. They are also very likely to be in a different legal jurisdiction so it's non trivial to do. So, yes, you have, by making yourself a harder target despite having the same amount of centralisation on your part
- xani_ 4y ago
  Same with most VPN providers. Just expands the search from "ask ISP" to "ask ISP, they tell government its a VPN company, ask VPN company". Now, sure, they could "just" delete logs, but their government can "just" tell them not to, or even tell them to live send the logs to them directly. So it's really "which country's government you trust".

pkulak 4y ago

Of course they do? They are a tool that routes traffic through a third party. That can be anywhere from terrible to fantastic for privacy, with everything in between. There's nothing "of course" about it.

shubb 4y ago

One of the main use cases today for VPNs is to pirate movies or access geo-blocked content. That and dodgy hotel wifi. The adversary is netflix or a IP rights enforcement company, and the user doesn't care what their ISP or a state could observe. For what they are used for, they are fine. If you are worried about state or megacorp spying, the solution is less technical and more political.