10 ms·

VPNs don’t help privacy at all. They allow you to substitute trust in your ISP for trust in a different entity. For some, that may be good, but for most others

by uup 4y ago

VPNs don’t help privacy at all. They allow you to substitute trust in your ISP for trust in a different entity. For some, that may be good, but for most others it’s a wash.

riedel 4y ago
In Germany (according to TTDSG) an ISP does not have to claim that. They need explicit permission to track you. It is pretty much as the post does not have to claim that they open your envelopes.
Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL 4y ago
https://www.ivpn.net/ https://www.ivpn.net/ see "Do you really need a VPN?" - not affiliated with them, but tell me any other VPN-service that is actually this upfront... most are marketing the hell out of their apparent magic effects... since we're on the topic: how is it still a thing that vpn services are actively pitching content-block/copyright circumvention? Seems weird to pitch something as shady this loud and publicly? Reminds me of how weird I find it that trackers and illegal hosting sites have twitter accounts...
Nifty3929 4y ago
I believe it is harder for my government to get my data from a foreign VPN service than from my local oligopoly ISP that is already effectively an arm of the government.
wan_ala 4y ago
I think the only good reasons to use VPNs are for torrenting and accessing movies only available in other countries. For any privacy reasons its best to use Tor.
andrewstuart2 4y ago
I'd say they're still a net win, generally. The ISP vs VPN service tracking who does cancel out (if you ignore privacy claims of VPN providers, vs ISPs generally not guaranteeing that at all), but for every other service I might consume, when I'm on VPN I'm no longer connecting from a unique IP that can have other identifying information tagged to it.
- simon1573 4y ago
  To add to that: in Sweden (which is generally pretty ok in regards to privacy and rights) ISPs are required to store traffic for 6 months, while VPN providers are not.
  - lokedhs 4y ago
    Wasn't this struck down by the EU recently?
Double_a_92 4y ago
They help in public WiFi.
- babypuncher 4y ago
  So I can pay $10/mo for a VPN for use when I'm on public wifi, or I can run WireGuard on my Raspberry Pi at home and get one for free
  - wbsss4412 4y ago
    Not sure what services you’ve looked at, but it definitely doesn’t cost $10/month. Your personal solution seems pretty good though.
  - elashri 4y ago
    It might be cheaper but still not free. Cost of electricity + time to maintain + Raspberry Pi itself. Not to mention that you don't get the variety of servers (for geo-location or more diverse networks not tracked to you by websites themselves).
    - babypuncher 4y ago
      Well the Raspberry Pi is already on 24/7 running a few other services for my home network. But even then, the energy consumption per month costs pennies. I update the device once a quarter and it takes me 5 minutes. These costs are so negligible as to have no impact on my decision making process.
  - wintermutestwin 4y ago
    Unless you are a network security expert, aren't you greatly increasing your risk by running that WireGuard server?
    - babypuncher 4y ago
      You do not need to be a "network security expert" to safely run a WireGuard server
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
> VPNs don’t help privacy at all Or course they do, I'm so tired of seeing posts like this when really what you mean is that it's not perfect privacy and therefore you don't like it.
- sascha_sl 4y ago
  No as a rule. They just replace your ISP with a VPN company. Which is the two is more shady is something you have to figure out, keeping in mind that a subsection of the internet just stops working or turns the aggressiveness of their anti-bot protections up to the maximum on a VPN.
- inetknght 4y ago
  > Or course they do Let me compare an ISP spying vs a VPN spying: 1. You make DNS request about example.com. Your ISP sees this. Your ISP can see what websites you "might" visit. 2. You connect to 1.2.3.4. Your ISP sees this. Your ISP can see what websites you "did" visit. 3. You request some data and receive some data. Your ISP sees the size of the data. If it's not encrypted, it can also see the content. Your ISP can see (at least) the size of objects that you requested -- which is enough to fingerprint many specific contents. Okay so not using a VPN gives effectively zero privacy. Let's look at a VPN: 1. You connect to a VPN (and let's assume your connection doesn't "leak" insomuch as now _all_ network traffic goes through the VPN). Your ISP can see this. 2. You make DNS request about example.com. Your VPN sees this and your ISP can see a network packet. Your VPN can see what websites you "might" visit, your ISP can't. 2. You connect to 1.2.3.4. Your VPN sees this. Your VPN can see what websites you "did" visit. Your ISP still sees traffic to the VPN. 3. You request some data and receive some data. Your VPN sees the size of the data, and your ISP only sees the aggregate-size of data across all of your sessions. If it's not encrypted, your VPN can also see the content but your ISP should still only see aggregate size. Your VPN can see (at least) the size of objects that you requested -- which is enough to fingerprint many specific contents. Your ISP will have a tough time fingerprinting content from specific websites. 4. Your ISP can note that you have a high amount of traffic, possibly note that the traffic is going to a known VPN destination, and that your "normal" traffic is now gone. Now, your VPN can see all the stuff that your ISP used to see. In addition, your ISP can now determine that you might be doing something illegal, suspicious, or at the very least "enterprise grade" and demand more money. Have you really gained more privacy?
swayvil 4y ago
VPNs don't anonymize, they just route you through an anonymizing service. Lol.
voxic11 4y ago
ISPs generally don't claim to protect your privacy at all [0]. So it would be foolish to trust them to do something they never claimed they would do. VPNs generally do claim they will protect your privacy so at least trusting them makes some amount of sense. Going from "trusting" an entity that explicitly requires you to consent to spying when you sign up to trusting one which explicitly promises to protect your privacy when you sign up does seem like it would "help privacy" in most cases. [0] https://www.privacypolicies.com/blog/isp-tracking-you/ https://www.privacypolicies.com/blog/isp-tracking-you/
- dagenix 4y ago
  A major difference between your ISP and a VPN is that your ISP is generally an established company based in the same jurisdiction as you are. So, if they do something terrible, in theory at least, they can be brought to court. A non-trivial number of VPNs that claim to protect your privacy, however, are based all around the world with unclear corporate structures. If they do something terrible, you likely have no recourse at all. How much faith you want to put in a promise made by such a company is up to you - but I would push back on the idea that simply making a promise really provides much value by itself.
  - Sakos 4y ago
    > based in the same jurisdiction as you are Why would I trust an entity that often has the legal backing to harvest my data and provide it to the government whenever they "deem" it necessary? The same government that has direct means of control over me? Whether it's the US, China, Germany, I think I'd rather put my chances with some private company that at least has financial and maybe ethical motivations (depending on the company) to protect my privacy. An ISP will only go as far as the law requires to protect it and who knows what backdoor deals are made with governments to subvert those same laws. There is no realistic/helpful/useful legal process to sue over a breach of privacy. So my ISP being in my jurisdiction doesn't do me any good at all.
- actuallyalys 4y ago
  ISPs don't emphasize privacy in their marketing, but some large ISPs claim they protect it [0], although their claims are pretty dubious[0][1]. I think your logic holds up, but it's not quite as definitive as you say. VPNs are not the straightforward privacy upgrade that HTTPS is. (I don't think you were trying to imply otherwise.) I think the picture improves if you choose more carefully. Choosing an established VPN that has a no-log policy and has been audited seems much better, because now multiple companies are putting their reputation on the line. On the other hand, I think a relatively unknown company that's reselling someone else's VPN and hoping to cash in on the "VPN = privacy" is only a slight upgrade over a major ISP. [0]: https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-11-12/column-internet-service-providers-privacy https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-11-12/column-int... [1]: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/reports/look-what-isps-know-about-you-examining-privacy-practices-six-major-internet-service-providers/p195402_isp_6b_staff_report.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/reports/look-what...
nine_k 4y ago
VPNs help against geolocation and geofencing though.
jimmydorry 4y ago
I would reverse that assertion under the one condition that you don't use a VPN provider from your own country. In Australia at least, ISPs are legally required to maintain logs of everything you access for several years. By choosing to trust a VPN provider outside of Australia, you defacto have better privacy than you otherwise would have.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Does the VPN company have a business presence in Australia? If so, then maybe you haven't gained as much as you think...
  - jimmydorry 4y ago
    Absolutely true. The VPN provider's servers and business must be outside of your country.
wintermutestwin 4y ago
>VPNs don’t help privacy at all. 1. They keep your data safe from your ISP. 2. They keep your IP hidden to the sites you browse. Those two clearly "help" privacy.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- rcxdude 4y ago
  They also expose your data to the VPN operator. That's a negative on privacy. Whether it's a net negative or positive depends on the VPN operator and ISP involved.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    The VPN provider could be you hosted somewhere using bitcoin.
Forge36 4y ago
While traveling I've used my own VPN hosted at home to provide additional security. It allows me to trust only my ISP instead of every ISP in various coffee shops.
7952 4y ago
It is not just about your ISP though. Your IP is getting sent to whatever website you are connecting to. People won't always trust that website.
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
> VPNs don’t help privacy at all. > For some, that may be good, but for most others it’s a wash. That sounds less like "VPNs don’t help privacy at all" and more like "VPNs are helpful some of the time".

by uup 4y ago

VPNs don’t help privacy at all. They allow you to substitute trust in your ISP for trust in a different entity. For some, that may be good, but for most others it’s a wash.

riedel 4y ago

In Germany (according to TTDSG) an ISP does not have to claim that. They need explicit permission to track you. It is pretty much as the post does not have to claim that they open your envelopes.

Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL 4y ago

https://www.ivpn.net/ https://www.ivpn.net/ see "Do you really need a VPN?" - not affiliated with them, but tell me any other VPN-service that is actually this upfront... most are marketing the hell out of their apparent magic effects... since we're on the topic: how is it still a thing that vpn services are actively pitching content-block/copyright circumvention? Seems weird to pitch something as shady this loud and publicly? Reminds me of how weird I find it that trackers and illegal hosting sites have twitter accounts...

Nifty3929 4y ago

I believe it is harder for my government to get my data from a foreign VPN service than from my local oligopoly ISP that is already effectively an arm of the government.

wan_ala 4y ago

I think the only good reasons to use VPNs are for torrenting and accessing movies only available in other countries. For any privacy reasons its best to use Tor.

andrewstuart2 4y ago

I'd say they're still a net win, generally. The ISP vs VPN service tracking who does cancel out (if you ignore privacy claims of VPN providers, vs ISPs generally not guaranteeing that at all), but for every other service I might consume, when I'm on VPN I'm no longer connecting from a unique IP that can have other identifying information tagged to it.

simon1573 4y ago
To add to that: in Sweden (which is generally pretty ok in regards to privacy and rights) ISPs are required to store traffic for 6 months, while VPN providers are not.
- lokedhs 4y ago
  Wasn't this struck down by the EU recently?

Double_a_92 4y ago

They help in public WiFi.

babypuncher 4y ago
So I can pay $10/mo for a VPN for use when I'm on public wifi, or I can run WireGuard on my Raspberry Pi at home and get one for free
- wbsss4412 4y ago
  Not sure what services you’ve looked at, but it definitely doesn’t cost $10/month. Your personal solution seems pretty good though.
- elashri 4y ago
  It might be cheaper but still not free. Cost of electricity + time to maintain + Raspberry Pi itself. Not to mention that you don't get the variety of servers (for geo-location or more diverse networks not tracked to you by websites themselves).
  - babypuncher 4y ago
    Well the Raspberry Pi is already on 24/7 running a few other services for my home network. But even then, the energy consumption per month costs pennies. I update the device once a quarter and it takes me 5 minutes. These costs are so negligible as to have no impact on my decision making process.
- wintermutestwin 4y ago
  Unless you are a network security expert, aren't you greatly increasing your risk by running that WireGuard server?
  - babypuncher 4y ago
    You do not need to be a "network security expert" to safely run a WireGuard server

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

> VPNs don’t help privacy at all Or course they do, I'm so tired of seeing posts like this when really what you mean is that it's not perfect privacy and therefore you don't like it.

sascha_sl 4y ago
No as a rule. They just replace your ISP with a VPN company. Which is the two is more shady is something you have to figure out, keeping in mind that a subsection of the internet just stops working or turns the aggressiveness of their anti-bot protections up to the maximum on a VPN.
inetknght 4y ago
> Or course they do Let me compare an ISP spying vs a VPN spying: 1. You make DNS request about example.com. Your ISP sees this. Your ISP can see what websites you "might" visit. 2. You connect to 1.2.3.4. Your ISP sees this. Your ISP can see what websites you "did" visit. 3. You request some data and receive some data. Your ISP sees the size of the data. If it's not encrypted, it can also see the content. Your ISP can see (at least) the size of objects that you requested -- which is enough to fingerprint many specific contents. Okay so not using a VPN gives effectively zero privacy. Let's look at a VPN: 1. You connect to a VPN (and let's assume your connection doesn't "leak" insomuch as now _all_ network traffic goes through the VPN). Your ISP can see this. 2. You make DNS request about example.com. Your VPN sees this and your ISP can see a network packet. Your VPN can see what websites you "might" visit, your ISP can't. 2. You connect to 1.2.3.4. Your VPN sees this. Your VPN can see what websites you "did" visit. Your ISP still sees traffic to the VPN. 3. You request some data and receive some data. Your VPN sees the size of the data, and your ISP only sees the aggregate-size of data across all of your sessions. If it's not encrypted, your VPN can also see the content but your ISP should still only see aggregate size. Your VPN can see (at least) the size of objects that you requested -- which is enough to fingerprint many specific contents. Your ISP will have a tough time fingerprinting content from specific websites. 4. Your ISP can note that you have a high amount of traffic, possibly note that the traffic is going to a known VPN destination, and that your "normal" traffic is now gone. Now, your VPN can see all the stuff that your ISP used to see. In addition, your ISP can now determine that you might be doing something illegal, suspicious, or at the very least "enterprise grade" and demand more money. Have you really gained more privacy?

swayvil 4y ago

VPNs don't anonymize, they just route you through an anonymizing service. Lol.

voxic11 4y ago

ISPs generally don't claim to protect your privacy at all [0]. So it would be foolish to trust them to do something they never claimed they would do. VPNs generally do claim they will protect your privacy so at least trusting them makes some amount of sense. Going from "trusting" an entity that explicitly requires you to consent to spying when you sign up to trusting one which explicitly promises to protect your privacy when you sign up does seem like it would "help privacy" in most cases. [0] https://www.privacypolicies.com/blog/isp-tracking-you/ https://www.privacypolicies.com/blog/isp-tracking-you/

dagenix 4y ago
A major difference between your ISP and a VPN is that your ISP is generally an established company based in the same jurisdiction as you are. So, if they do something terrible, in theory at least, they can be brought to court. A non-trivial number of VPNs that claim to protect your privacy, however, are based all around the world with unclear corporate structures. If they do something terrible, you likely have no recourse at all. How much faith you want to put in a promise made by such a company is up to you - but I would push back on the idea that simply making a promise really provides much value by itself.
- Sakos 4y ago
  > based in the same jurisdiction as you are Why would I trust an entity that often has the legal backing to harvest my data and provide it to the government whenever they "deem" it necessary? The same government that has direct means of control over me? Whether it's the US, China, Germany, I think I'd rather put my chances with some private company that at least has financial and maybe ethical motivations (depending on the company) to protect my privacy. An ISP will only go as far as the law requires to protect it and who knows what backdoor deals are made with governments to subvert those same laws. There is no realistic/helpful/useful legal process to sue over a breach of privacy. So my ISP being in my jurisdiction doesn't do me any good at all.
actuallyalys 4y ago
ISPs don't emphasize privacy in their marketing, but some large ISPs claim they protect it [0], although their claims are pretty dubious[0][1]. I think your logic holds up, but it's not quite as definitive as you say. VPNs are not the straightforward privacy upgrade that HTTPS is. (I don't think you were trying to imply otherwise.) I think the picture improves if you choose more carefully. Choosing an established VPN that has a no-log policy and has been audited seems much better, because now multiple companies are putting their reputation on the line. On the other hand, I think a relatively unknown company that's reselling someone else's VPN and hoping to cash in on the "VPN = privacy" is only a slight upgrade over a major ISP. [0]: https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-11-12/column-internet-service-providers-privacy https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-11-12/column-int... [1]: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/reports/look-what-isps-know-about-you-examining-privacy-practices-six-major-internet-service-providers/p195402_isp_6b_staff_report.pdf https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/reports/look-what...

nine_k 4y ago

VPNs help against geolocation and geofencing though.

jimmydorry 4y ago

I would reverse that assertion under the one condition that you don't use a VPN provider from your own country. In Australia at least, ISPs are legally required to maintain logs of everything you access for several years. By choosing to trust a VPN provider outside of Australia, you defacto have better privacy than you otherwise would have.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Does the VPN company have a business presence in Australia? If so, then maybe you haven't gained as much as you think...
- jimmydorry 4y ago
  Absolutely true. The VPN provider's servers and business must be outside of your country.

wintermutestwin 4y ago

>VPNs don’t help privacy at all. 1. They keep your data safe from your ISP. 2. They keep your IP hidden to the sites you browse. Those two clearly "help" privacy.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
rcxdude 4y ago
They also expose your data to the VPN operator. That's a negative on privacy. Whether it's a net negative or positive depends on the VPN operator and ISP involved.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  The VPN provider could be you hosted somewhere using bitcoin.

Forge36 4y ago

While traveling I've used my own VPN hosted at home to provide additional security. It allows me to trust only my ISP instead of every ISP in various coffee shops.

7952 4y ago

It is not just about your ISP though. Your IP is getting sent to whatever website you are connecting to. People won't always trust that website.

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago

> VPNs don’t help privacy at all. > For some, that may be good, but for most others it’s a wash. That sounds less like "VPNs don’t help privacy at all" and more like "VPNs are helpful some of the time".